Brexit again

[udderlyoffroad]

56 minutes ago, oowee said:

How much better would the picture have been without Brexit.

How much better would the picture have been if we hadn’t just shut the economy down for 2 ******* years because of something no worse than annual flu.

[243deer]

On 22/11/2022 at 18:04, oowee said:

They could become advantages in a competitive sense but from a social perspective I don't think any of us are prepared for the drop in living standards. 

Not picking on you Oowee just that I oft see this quoted and your post was easiest to quote.

Coming currently from the bottom end of the salary scale I would just like to say from my direct experience that wages in Norfolk for jobs such as process operators, production line workers, flt drivers and in farming have risen significantly since the exodus of Europeans returning home.

So from my perspective brexit has had the direct effect of raising my standard of living already.

Statistics are often quoted in threads like these by folk who forget that country comparative statistics are really only created for the use of politicians. Anyone with any common sense will realise that the factors affecting the growth figure in each European country would only be valid if each country was governed by exactly the same criteria and the statistics were produced in exactly the same way. The EU does not even manage this as we all know that some countries are more equal than others.

When I worked in Brussels one of my friends worked for a department studying 30mph limits. 50+ folk all earning in excess of 50k and this was in 2000. As far as I could see there was no mechanism for my government to be able to object to a department such as this as being significantly over resourced.

Another more well known example is that every MEP is given the value of a first class return scheduled flight ticket every week whether they return home or not. I heard this directly from a MEP as I had a beer with him one Saturday afternoon in Kitty O'Sheas in Shuman (those who know Brussels will know exactly where I mean).

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The data is for UK Exports not UK exports to the EU which area a significant proportion of trade. Its certainly good news.

How much better would the picture have been without Brexit.

While overall trade volumes have recovered, the UK’s trade performance has been poor relative to other advanced economies since Brexit. Among G7 countries, the UK has performed the worst since the end of the transition period (see figure 3). Broadly consistent with the data so far, the OBR projected in its March 2022 forecast that imports and exports will be around 15% lower in the long term due to the UK leaving the EU.

I was going to say that these are simple predictions by the EU dominated OECD, but when I went into it a little further, it became apparent , that it was based on some very slim figures....

'The economy is to contract more than any of the other six countries that form the group of the world's largest industrialised democracies, according to forecasts from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

GDP, a measure of economic output, is to reduce 0.4% next year and grow 0.2% in 2024. This is better than previous OECD predictions which has been for the economy to remain static.

The only other G7 economy to contract next year is Germany's. which will experience a smaller contraction of 0.3%.

Growth will be small in the majority of the G7 nations. Italy's GDP will grow 0.2%, the US will see 0.5%, France will experience 0.6% while Canada and Japan will see rises of 1% and 1.8% respectively.'

 

So , apart from the fact that our exports are , and have been very healthy since Brexit, despite what the OECD predicted, our GDP will (predicted) grow 0.1 % less than EU powerhouse Germany next year ?
The only other nation in the G7 is France , which did slightly better than Germany.

Thats terrible isnt it 

Again , pessimistic predictions from a very biased, Brexit hating organisation, that rarely gets anything right anyway.

[Rewulf]

38 minutes ago, 243deer said:

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

No theyve got worse !

38 minutes ago, 243deer said:

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

Probably a Guardian reader poll 😄

[old man]

52 minutes ago, 243deer said:

Not picking on you Oowee just that I oft see this quoted and your post was easiest to quote.

Coming currently from the bottom end of the salary scale I would just like to say from my direct experience that wages in Norfolk for jobs such as process operators, production line workers, flt drivers and in farming have risen significantly since the exodus of Europeans returning home.

So from my perspective brexit has had the direct effect of raising my standard of living already.

Statistics are often quoted in threads like these by folk who forget that country comparative statistics are really only created for the use of politicians. Anyone with any common sense will realise that the factors affecting the growth figure in each European country would only be valid if each country was governed by exactly the same criteria and the statistics were produced in exactly the same way. The EU does not even manage this as we all know that some countries are more equal than others.

When I worked in Brussels one of my friends worked for a department studying 30mph limits. 50+ folk all earning in excess of 50k and this was in 2000. As far as I could see there was no mechanism for my government to be able to object to a department such as this as being significantly over resourced.

Another more well known example is that every MEP is given the value of a first class return scheduled flight ticket every week whether they return home or not. I heard this directly from a MEP as I had a beer with him one Saturday afternoon in Kitty O'Sheas in Shuman (those who know Brussels will know exactly where I mean).

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

Never seen  hog reduce it's rations voluntarily?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 243deer said:

Not picking on you Oowee just that I oft see this quoted and your post was easiest to quote.

Coming currently from the bottom end of the salary scale I would just like to say from my direct experience that wages in Norfolk for jobs such as process operators, production line workers, flt drivers and in farming have risen significantly since the exodus of Europeans returning home.

So from my perspective brexit has had the direct effect of raising my standard of living already.

Statistics are often quoted in threads like these by folk who forget that country comparative statistics are really only created for the use of politicians. Anyone with any common sense will realise that the factors affecting the growth figure in each European country would only be valid if each country was governed by exactly the same criteria and the statistics were produced in exactly the same way. The EU does not even manage this as we all know that some countries are more equal than others.

When I worked in Brussels one of my friends worked for a department studying 30mph limits. 50+ folk all earning in excess of 50k and this was in 2000. As far as I could see there was no mechanism for my government to be able to object to a department such as this as being significantly over resourced.

Another more well known example is that every MEP is given the value of a first class return scheduled flight ticket every week whether they return home or not. I heard this directly from a MEP as I had a beer with him one Saturday afternoon in Kitty O'Sheas in Shuman (those who know Brussels will know exactly where I mean).

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

There is certainly a lot wrong with it, not least of which is the waste. I am hoping that the UK leaving together and the remodeling pressures that the EU transitions to something significantly different for when we rejoin. 

[Scully]

52 minutes ago, oowee said:

There is certainly a lot wrong with it, not least of which is the waste. I am hoping that the UK leaving together and the remodeling pressures that the EU transitions to something significantly different for when we rejoin. 

😂Trolltastic! 👍

[Good shot?]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

😂Trolltastic! 👍

Exactly, again.

[Rewulf]

52 minutes ago, oowee said:

There is certainly a lot wrong with it, not least of which is the waste. I am hoping that the UK leaving together and the remodeling pressures that the EU transitions to something significantly different for when we rejoin. 

Well , weve been left properly 2 years now , and they dont seem to be rushing for reform, so I wouldnt hold your breath.

Once countries bite the bullet and start ditching the euro, I suspect the EU project will start to mutate into regional blocs , that better represent the interests, economies  and wealth levels of individual states .
France , Austria and Germany.
The Skandi countries with Denmark being pulled between them and the Franco German pact.
The former eastern bloc countries again , seeing to their own interests within the orbit of both the EU and Russia, ect, ect.

Although the core of the EU will never admit defeat or its failure, its power is diminishing as we watch, every week there is discord, with many now wondering what exactly it is that its useful for ?
A novice looking at it critically might see it as some kind of retirement club for grasping ex politicos , with an army of well paid lackeys pushing pens around with no particular aim, or useful result.
An empire with no clothes on.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Well , weve been left properly 2 years now , and they dont seem to be rushing for reform, so I wouldnt hold your breath.

Once countries bite the bullet and start ditching the euro, I suspect the EU project will start to mutate into regional blocs , that better represent the interests, economies  and wealth levels of individual states .
France , Austria and Germany.
The Skandi countries with Denmark being pulled between them and the Franco German pact.
The former eastern bloc countries again , seeing to their own interests within the orbit of both the EU and Russia, ect, ect.

Although the core of the EU will never admit defeat or its failure, its power is diminishing as we watch, every week there is discord, with many now wondering what exactly it is that its useful for ?
A novice looking at it critically might see it as some kind of retirement club for grasping ex politicos , with an army of well paid lackeys pushing pens around with no particular aim, or useful result.
An empire with no clothes on.

Maybe we can get a EU trade only bloc 🙂 

[ditchman]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Maybe we can get a EU trade only bloc 🙂 

thats what it was like in the beginning......the EEC..........it stabilised prices...stopped the wine lakes ...butter mountains....ceral mountains...over production of meat......

then the politicians got involved and it all became control and POLITICAL....and then wokes wanted us to ditch our culture ...speak Esperanto....and be serfs goverened by the princes in Brussells in their winter palaces

the EEC in the begining was actually a life saver.........until we uncovered and were drawn into the alternative agenda..

just my thought anyway...

 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, ditchman said:

thats what it was like in the beginning......the EEC..........it stabilised prices...stopped the wine lakes ...butter mountains....ceral mountains...over production of meat......

then the politicians got involved and it all became control and POLITICAL....and then wokes wanted us to ditch our culture ...speak Esperanto....and be serfs goverened by the princes in Brussells in their winter palaces

the EEC in the begining was actually a life saver.........until we uncovered and were drawn into the alternative agenda..

just my thought anyway...

 

Exactly. Could you imagine the debate about joining again 

I think we have bigger issues at the mo like the NHS needing sorting and the energy crisis. One thing at a time. 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Maybe we can get a EU trade only bloc 🙂 

Youve surely got to ask yourself the question, why do we NEED someone to look after our trade between different nations ?
No outside party looks after the UKs trade now were out , and yet , it functions perfectly well ?

Why do we need another level of bureaucracy , its like going to the supermarket and going through one checkout , then moving along, load your shopping onto another checkout and then paying 10 % more 

4 minutes ago, ditchman said:

the EEC in the begining was actually a life saver.........until we uncovered and were drawn into the alternative agenda..

Exactly , that agenda was always the endgame.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Youve surely got to ask yourself the question, why do we NEED someone to look after our trade between different nations ?
No outside party looks after the UKs trade now were out , and yet , it functions perfectly well ?

The world runs on trading bloc's and ours is far from running badly let alone perfectly. 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, 243deer said:

Not picking on you Oowee just that I oft see this quoted and your post was easiest to quote.

Coming currently from the bottom end of the salary scale I would just like to say from my direct experience that wages in Norfolk for jobs such as process operators, production line workers, flt drivers and in farming have risen significantly since the exodus of Europeans returning home.

So from my perspective brexit has had the direct effect of raising my standard of living already.

Statistics are often quoted in threads like these by folk who forget that country comparative statistics are really only created for the use of politicians. Anyone with any common sense will realise that the factors affecting the growth figure in each European country would only be valid if each country was governed by exactly the same criteria and the statistics were produced in exactly the same way. The EU does not even manage this as we all know that some countries are more equal than others.

When I worked in Brussels one of my friends worked for a department studying 30mph limits. 50+ folk all earning in excess of 50k and this was in 2000. As far as I could see there was no mechanism for my government to be able to object to a department such as this as being significantly over resourced.

Another more well known example is that every MEP is given the value of a first class return scheduled flight ticket every week whether they return home or not. I heard this directly from a MEP as I had a beer with him one Saturday afternoon in Kitty O'Sheas in Shuman (those who know Brussels will know exactly where I mean).

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

What an eloquent post 👍

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The world runs on trading bloc's and ours is far from running badly let alone perfectly. 

No, the world runs on trade. 

If you have a product the world wants, they will buy it, whether you're in a trading bloc, not in a trading bloc, or casually invading another country. 

The EU  does its level best to restrict trade, when it suits their purposes. 

[manthing]

13 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The ONS , so a pretty solid source .

Heres the complete doc https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-in-numbers/uk-trade-in-numbers-web-version

Cheers matey. 👍

[Vince Green]

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

No, the world runs on trade. 

If you have a product the world wants, they will buy it, whether you're in a trading bloc, not in a trading bloc, or casually invading another country. 

The EU  does its level best to restrict trade, when it suits their purposes. 

Tariff free trade only benefits the seller. It prevents the buyer from charging import duty or controlling / restricting imports to protect its own industry.

In the EU there are only two nett sellers, France and Germany. 

For the rest a free market does them no favours what so ever. As for a single currency the damage that has done is self evident.

The EU is all about control 

[discobob]

16 hours ago, 243deer said:

Not picking on you Oowee just that I oft see this quoted and your post was easiest to quote.

Coming currently from the bottom end of the salary scale I would just like to say from my direct experience that wages in Norfolk for jobs such as process operators, production line workers, flt drivers and in farming have risen significantly since the exodus of Europeans returning home.

So from my perspective brexit has had the direct effect of raising my standard of living already.

Statistics are often quoted in threads like these by folk who forget that country comparative statistics are really only created for the use of politicians. Anyone with any common sense will realise that the factors affecting the growth figure in each European country would only be valid if each country was governed by exactly the same criteria and the statistics were produced in exactly the same way. The EU does not even manage this as we all know that some countries are more equal than others.

When I worked in Brussels one of my friends worked for a department studying 30mph limits. 50+ folk all earning in excess of 50k and this was in 2000. As far as I could see there was no mechanism for my government to be able to object to a department such as this as being significantly over resourced.

Another more well known example is that every MEP is given the value of a first class return scheduled flight ticket every week whether they return home or not. I heard this directly from a MEP as I had a beer with him one Saturday afternoon in Kitty O'Sheas in Shuman (those who know Brussels will know exactly where I mean).

If the EU was a lean mean and useful entity instead of being the wasteful, childish and corrupt organisation that it is I am sure the vote would have been remain. I consider that our leave vote could have been interpreted by Europe as a shot over the bows and a complaint about what was happening. They could have taken on board that things had gone too far and attempted to improve the things folk were clearly worried about. Unfortunately the EU does not appear to have taken the opportunity.

When folk have apparently 'changed their minds' which statistic exactly is being quoted? I have always been in favour of a common market but not a federal Europe. 

I done a spot of work the an European Organisation - European Patent Organisation in Munich - in  2008

I was there to do support of their internal systems while training their new permanent recruit. This recruit had been a contractor with the organisation and was English - and he ticked the boxes for a role - He was colloqueural (?) in two languages as his mother was French and had a degree in English - the fact that he had no knowledge of the job was irrespective. So, he was classed as my trainee....

His take home was 7.5k Euros a month as he paid no tax. He got free health, dental, Private English Speaking school (which could be accomodation as well), fully funded trips back to the home country every two years, A non-contributory pension that could be commuted tax free at 10 year points - back in 2008 depending on grade this was running between 350k and 450k Euro's

There was a manager there - his wife was also the same band - their take home was 25k Euros a month between them. They were busy buying up a town in the North East to rent out properties.

ESA has the same arrangement. This is modelled after the EU arrangement as well. 

It makes our MP's expenses look like loose pocket change

[Rewulf]

Regarding GDP, heres an interesting little video.
Among other things , it shows how badly we suffered in the 2008/9 recession , and also how strong and resilient we are for a nation of our size.
Just pause it if its going too fast for you.

 

[armsid]

As Vince stated there are 2 nett producers in the EU and when we joined the Common Market our industrial heart collapsed as these two wanted sole control just as AH tried to do in 1939 It is about control bureacrocy which gives huge rewards in pay jobs for life and the population paying for it

[owain]

Just been to drop some biscuits and a leg of boar off with one of my local farmers. Generally having a crack about the price of food and stuff, they’ve now lost their single farm payment or something? So he was saying food is about to get a whole lot more expensive.

[Scully]

52 minutes ago, owain said:

Just been to drop some biscuits and a leg of boar off with one of my local farmers. Generally having a crack about the price of food and stuff, they’ve now lost their single farm payment or something? So he was saying food is about to get a whole lot more expensive.

Not really sure how he makes that out; farmers will just get what supermarkets are willing to pay for it, and what they can sell it for at auction. 🤔

[owain]

17 minutes ago, Scully said:

Not really sure how he makes that out; farmers will just get what supermarkets are willing to pay for it, and what they can sell it for at auction. 🤔

Well, I would imagine that they are not going to sell their produce at a loss. So we either import more, and pay more for it that way. Or support our local farmers, which I’m told brexit is all about, and pay them more to cover the costs that were previously covered by EU grants. 

[Vince Green]

15 hours ago, owain said:

Well, I would imagine that they are not going to sell their produce at a loss. So we either import more, and pay more for it that way. Or support our local farmers, which I’m told brexit is all about, and pay them more to cover the costs that were previously covered by EU grants. 

A classic example recently was eggs. When the cost of heating the sheds and feed went above what they were getting from selling the eggs they simply stopped production