NHS crisis

[Dougy]

33 minutes ago, Westward said:

I don't know what people expect. 

It's no good trying to pin it on the government, the tories have poured more money in than the other lot did, but it doesn't make much difference because it won't be solved by simply throwing money at it.

To start we had a nett migration of 330,000 in 2021. A figure that's been steadily increasing for the last 20 years or so resulting in at least 5 million more people living here and that's just the ones they know about.

I know or know of several people who've migrated here from overseas. In every case they arrived with a raft of medical issues, some very serious, for the NHS to deal with, that they either couldn't afford or couldn't get at all in their country of birth. I don't doubt that the NHS is a huge magnet for migration to Britain. Two migrants that I still have knowledge of have also since had children delivered by the NHS.

Factor in the vastly increased range and complexity of treatments available, the sad reality that many common conditions are lifestyle related and therefore avoidable, and the hopelessness of the GP surgery system, meaning A&E often get buried in trivial cases, and the problems become insurmountable without a fundamental realignment of immigration policy and the 1st level care system.

Aside from the GP surgeries, the poor old NHS is probably trying to handle at least double the demand level of 20 years ago with only about 15 or 20% extra hospitals and resources.

1st of all Chairman i hope everything turns out well with your son. 👍

 

@Westward

Nobody can hear you, nor can anybody see these problems you mention. 

But apparently the increase in people landing in the UK wanting the free treatment is not having any impact on the NHS. 

 

Oh ! wait a minute, its due to the longevity of our parents and grand parents. 

Oh come on !!!!!

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Dougy

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Like what i paid all my life i think i am entitled to a bit more than some ;;;;;; that hasn't paid at all  

Of course but we still have no system for paying properly for social care and blocking beds. If we did not have a Christian majority in power we could look to introduce voluntary euthanasia. How many lives are prolonged against the persons wishes? 

[old man]

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

Very sorry to hear of your son O hope he can make a good recovery. 

 

The NHS model is propagated on more people paying than drawing. We have an ageing population and we have cut of the supply of people paying into the system.

We need to provide less service or reduce the number of people drawing on the service. We could start by reviewing services to the older generations. 

Oh Dear!

[discobob]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

Of course but we still have no system for paying properly for social care and blocking beds. If we did not have a Christian majority in power we could look to introduce voluntary euthanasia. How many lives are prolonged against the persons wishes? 

I think that you might want to go and live in Canada where they have brought in Euthanasia, apparently they are offering it to people with depression and down to teenagers. Apparently one person, a former paralympian, who needed a stairlift was offered it while going through the process

While I do thing that some form of Euthanasia would be good for terminal diseases (after all we put our animals to sleep when it is time) but no way would I want anything like the Canadian model

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, discobob said:

I think that you might want to go and live in Canada where they have brought in Euthanasia, apparently they are offering it to people with depression and down to teenagers. Apparently one person, a former paralympian, who needed a stairlift was offered it while going through the process

While I do thing that some form of Euthanasia would be good for terminal diseases (after all we put our animals to sleep when it is time) but no way would I want anything like the Canadian model

If Trudeau's past form is anything to go by, it will probably become mandatory for most illnesses.

[12gauge82]

I never thought I'd say this but I think we're reaching the point we'd be better off abolishing a free NHS and fund it instead via personal contributions, it would mean only those who have paid in, could get the service, but we're already at a point people who have worked and paid in all their lives can't get the treatment they need, while an economic migrant turns up on our shores and gets exceptionally expensive treatment for free, or a habitual drug user who has never contributed to society and has spent their lives spreading misery committing burglary and costing the tax payer in court fees, legal services and prison time gets everything at others expense with a string of self inflicted health conditions. 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

gets everything at others expense

This about sums the UK up at the moment.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Newbie to this

[Jaymo]

16 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I never thought I'd say this but I think we're reaching the point we'd be better off abolishing a free NHS and fund it instead via personal contributions, it would mean only those who have paid in, could get the service, but we're already at a point people who have worked and paid in all their lives can't get the treatment they need, while an economic migrant turns up on our shores and gets exceptionally expensive treatment for free, or a habitual drug user who has never contributed to society and has spent their lives spreading misery committing burglary and costing the tax payer in court fees, legal services and prison time gets everything at others expense with a string of self inflicted health conditions. 

Indeed. 
 

Maybe not a disbarring of all treatment, but certainly a tiered system. 
Of course many will scream about ‘rights’ and fairness. 
Where is the fairness in todays current system? 

Be like other Countries.

For starters. Bring in a fee for doctors appointments ( exemption applies to those such as pensioners and children) If your on benefits, if you can afford to cape then you can afford your tenner appointment fee. 
Forfeiture of fee for missed appointments. 
 

This will have triple benefits.

Balance the books a bit.
Stop the time wasters.

By applying a charge, increase the availability Doctors appointments as this push people into doing what they should for many minor ailments, seek the opinion of their vastly under-utilised pharmacists. 
 

[amateur]

49 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Indeed. 
 

Maybe not a disbarring of all treatment, but certainly a tiered system. 
Of course many will scream about ‘rights’ and fairness. 
Where is the fairness in todays current system? 

Be like other Countries.

For starters. Bring in a fee for doctors appointments ( exemption applies to those such as pensioners and children) If your on benefits, if you can afford to cape then you can afford your tenner appointment fee. 
Forfeiture of fee for missed appointments. 
 

This will have triple benefits.

Balance the books a bit.
Stop the time wasters.

By applying a charge, increase the availability Doctors appointments as this push people into doing what they should for many minor ailments, seek the opinion of their vastly under-utilised pharmacists. 
 

And then the wastrels will do what they do now, if they can't get an immediate GP appointment, head to A&E.

 

[Jaymo]

48 minutes ago, amateur said:

And then the wastrels will do what they do now, if they can't get an immediate GP appointment, head to A&E.

 

Aaaah, but as in ( I’ve only needed mrs attention in these two so can’t comment for elsewhere) France and Germany, out comes your Credit Card for the same ( in my case the same cost as per a docs appointment, plus I had to pay my meds). 
Plus, hopefully monies generated will be put directly back into providing better healthcare and not to the many ‘chiefs’ within the NHS.

A friend works in NHS planning. He knows what meds to be done but says his hands are tied by public/media and the unions 

[Westward]

Some years ago there was a news item about a lady from somewhere in Africa who was expecting quads and was close to giving birth. She flew to America but was refused access to hospital so she flew to London. She was immediately hospitalised and later was late delivered of 4 premature babies all of whom needed many weeks of critical care. Where they are now I have no idea but the cost to the NHS (i.e. us) was estimated at £400,000.

The principal of free treatment to everyone who walks in the door is a recipe for large scale abuse, both by health tourists and ordinary citizens. I agree totally that there should be a nominal charge at least for initial treatment or assessment. It would at least stop the time wasters turning up at A&E or the surgery because they have a headache or a sore toe.

 

[Vince Green]

In the year before she died my mother had several stays in Northwick Park Hospital

Because the parking was so extortionate (£2.60 an hour from memory) I got into the habit of going by bus when I visited her. The bus took you right into the hospital grounds but it meant I had to walk the length of the hospital inside to get to her ward which right at the back.

At weekends the place was like the Marie Celeste. Absolutely deserted, all the offices were shut, the clinics were all locked up, shutters down. You could walk the whole length of the hospital and not see a soul.

Now how can they run massive hospital like that, one of the biggest in the country on a five day working week? What a waste of resources

When you look at the backlogs of people waiting for treatments how can it be justified ?

They talk about a lack of nurses but the truth is five times more nurses are retiring than are being trained to replace them. If they are on the old contract, and most older nurses are, they can retire at 55 with a full pension.

The answer is simple, it's not rocket science. Train more nurses. 

[ph5172]

20 minutes ago, Westward said:

Some years ago there was a news item about a lady from somewhere in Africa who was expecting quads and was close to giving birth. She flew to America but was refused access to hospital so she flew to London. She was immediately hospitalised and later was late delivered of 4 premature babies all of whom needed many weeks of critical care. Where they are now I have no idea but the cost to the NHS (i.e. us) was estimated at £400,000.

The principal of free treatment to everyone who walks in the door is a recipe for large scale abuse, both by health tourists and ordinary citizens. I agree totally that there should be a nominal charge at least for initial treatment or assessment. It would at least stop the time wasters turning up at A&E or the surgery because they have a headache or a sore toe.

 

I do recall reading one London hospital  would refer to the ‘Lagos Shuttle’ and could time the arrival at the hospital based on the flight landing and taxi / ambulance travel time to the maternity wing 

[Vince Green]

21 hours ago, oowee said:

. If we did not have a Christian majority in power we could look to introduce voluntary euthanasia. How many lives are prolonged against the persons wishes? 

You would have to be very nieve not to believe that involuntary euthanasia occurs on a daily basis in our hospitals today.

It's the doctor, rather than him upstairs, that, decides when your time has come.

There has to be a pragmatic approach to these things otherwise the hospitals would be full of warm corpses on life support machines. Medical science can keep almost anybody alive if there is justification but usually there is not.

In my mother's case, as an example, the doctor said after recurring infections caused by poor circulation that they wanted to withdraw the antibiotics. We totally understood what the implications of that were and agreed.

Instead  they sedated her, made her very comfortable and she died the next day from sepsis. Something that would have happened a year before if this had been 1922 instead of 2022.

But that final year of her life was not the best. Lots of terrible pain, two major operations, loss of dignity, incontinence etc and long stays in hospital. Trouble eating.

And a lot more I won't go into. It must have cost the NHS hundreds of thousands of pounds which she never could have afforded if she had to pay.

But the point is, and this is a difficult one for me, her fate was sealed from her first stay in hospital. Insufficient blood supply to her intestine causing sepsis. Two operations did nothing to change this it just came back. Plus she was nearly 90

 

[Rob85]

23 hours ago, oowee said:

Of course but we still have no system for paying properly for social care and blocking beds. If we did not have a Christian majority in power we could look to introduce voluntary euthanasia. How many lives are prolonged against the persons wishes? 

Probably not that many, even since it started in 1998 dignitas has only  "put down" a few thousand people.

The introduction of a system for euthanasia in a country with an aging population would leave it open to abuse in my opinion.

A common theme I hear often is "not enough nurses". While yes I think a few more nurses wouldn't hurt i think they need many more junior doctors. You just have to look into a busy A+E ward on the weekend, there is always a good few nurses running around but probably only a few F1 and F2 doctors and a registrar....very rarely will you see a consultant 

[scolopax]

What has giving them an inflated pay rise got to do with getting better/ quicker treatment? 
 

the money would be far better spent on facilities and training new staff.

[Nial]

This is a post from the middle of a very interesting thread I read earlier.

The conclusion is that any further funding should go to the care system to stop the bed blocking that's paralyzing hospitals.

 

 

 

 

[oowee]

4 hours ago, scolopax said:

What has giving them an inflated pay rise got to do with getting better/ quicker treatment? 
 

the money would be far better spent on facilities and training new staff.

The pay is too low to attract and retain. The numbers employed leave the rotas short and those that come in are overworked so high rates of sick. Exactly the same as doctors. 

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

The pay is too low to attract and retain. The numbers employed leave the rotas short and those that come in are overworked so high rates of sick. Exactly the same as doctors. 

The starting salary for a nurse is £27 K ,going up to an average of £33 K for a full time nurse, they want a 19 % pay rise.
Where is that money coming from ?
The already massively bloated NHS would be bankrupt within a year if it was 'real' business , due to its poor performance in management.

Nurses arent paid peanuts , lets dispel that myth, neither are they overworked, thy have set rotas.
The problem is morale , again due to poor management.
The NHS is a leaking bucket , being constantly filled from the public purse tap

[Westward]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The starting salary for a nurse is £27 K ,going up to an average of £33 K for a full time nurse, they want a 19 % pay rise.
Where is that money coming from ?
The already massively bloated NHS would be bankrupt within a year if it was 'real' business , due to its poor performance in management.

Nurses arent paid peanuts , lets dispel that myth, neither are they overworked, thy have set rotas.
The problem is morale , again due to poor management.
The NHS is a leaking bucket , being constantly filled from the public purse tap

What people overlook amid all the emotive babbling, is that unlike paramedics and ambulance drivers, nursing is a career, at least for those that want more than just a job. There are various nursing grades up to senior Nurse Practitioner position and they can earn as much as £87K.

The NHS is hopelessly out of balance; managers can't manage unless those who really control our hospitals (i.e. The hugely well paid, mostly part time consultants) cooperate. The disparity between the top earners, often only putting in 2 days a week for the NHS and the troops is outrageous, especially since many of the the troops put in shifts and other unsociable hours or have to go out in all weathers and conditions to to provide 1st line treatment to the very sick or often enough those with terrible injuries. Meanwhile the consultants spend half their time seeing private patients and earning more per hour than some of the troops earn in a week.

The NHS must ultimately implode if it carries on providing free care for anyone who comes calling. And I don't just mean free treatment for health tourists, although that's outrageous enough, but the millions who offload responsibility for their own health to the NHS. The burden of dealing with largely avoidable conditions sucks in an ever increasing proportion of the NHS budgets and other resources.

It's long overdue for the government to get a proper grip on the health service and stop fannying around with nonsense like Nett Zero.

[Mungler]

It all needs a re think and the Commons majority needed the Conservatives have just squandered.

The NHS is a gigantic leaking bucket of epic proportions - nearly 2 million people employed, £160,000,000,000 each and every year without fail and demanding more and more money year on year and it’s failing and falling over? How? We should all be living to 200 years of age and with immediate access to healthcare.

We need an NHS for sure but when did the government ever spend money in budget, in time or wisely? Interestingly, we are now comparatively taxed higher than most Scandinavian countries and the electorate won’t go for increasing taxes to pour more money into the leaking NHS bucket.

Alas no one appreciates or values something they perceive as free - the contents of every A&E department at the weekend tells us that.

If anyone wants to know how to fix the NHS, ask the 20% of nurses and front line workers who do 80% of all the work. Put a suggestions box in every hospital, ignore any suggestion from anyone who took more than 5 working days sick in that year and make publishing the results compulsory.

And, this is a real job advert posted today.

.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Westward said:

The NHS is hopelessly out of balance; managers can't manage unless those who really control our hospitals (i.e. The hugely well paid, mostly part time consultants) cooperate.

Add the GPs into that equation, who get paid anyway, no matter how many patients they actually see, off loading many of them into A and E , when they could deal with a lot of it themselves, resulting in 7+ hour waits for some very ill people , many of whom die as a result.

 

7 minutes ago, Westward said:

The NHS must ultimately implode if it carries on providing free care for anyone who comes calling. And I don't just mean free treatment for health tourists, although that's outrageous enough, but the millions who offload responsibility for their own health to the NHS.

Health tourism takes many forms, one of the worst is a policy of giving away free anti HIV drugs to literally any one who asks.
Some drug courses cost 10s of 1000s of pounds , and are often sold on in the black markets of Thailand and India.

So many opportunities to cut costs, none of them taken, yet expunging the holy shrine of the NHS is a hill NO government will die on.

[Westward]

Lets also remember that NHS staff are still getting discounts at many shops and places such as gyms. Something now irreversible that started during the pandemic, when in reality only a small minority of staff and nurses were working in the Covid wards.

[Aled]

I hope your son gets well soon Chairman. 

[scolopax]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The starting salary for a nurse is £27 K ,going up to an average of £33 K for a full time nurse, they want a 19 % pay rise.
Where is that money coming from ?
The already massively bloated NHS would be bankrupt within a year if it was 'real' business , due to its poor performance in management.

Nurses arent paid peanuts , lets dispel that myth, neither are they overworked, thy have set rotas.
The problem is morale , again due to poor management.
The NHS is a leaking bucket , being constantly filled from the public purse tap

This ^