Mick Lynch - a different aspect?

[Vince Green]

It's very easy to make socialism sound very principled and totally believable.

That's why so many students and nieve do gooder fall for it Hook line and sinker.

The trouble comes when you try to put it into practice. One man's pay increase becomes another man's price increase. So he now requires a pay increase too, and so it goes on. Until you run into massive inflation and everything collapses because now most financial pressure are now global. 

You cannot control UK wages (or anything) from within the borders of the UK

The world cannot work that way. The only way you can do it half right is monetarism, the free market, call it what you will. Its tough, cruel at times and imperfect. Everyone sells their labour for what they can get for it.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Vince Green

[henry d]

35 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

One man's pay increase (man a) becomes another man's price increase (man b). So he now requires a pay increase too, and so it goes on.

Too simplistic. 

Man A gets a pay increase,  the product he produces increases in price. Man B buys this product but unless he buys it daily then how on earth can he need a pay increase? True socialist control of means of production would feed back any surplus to society as a whole. 

[Westward]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Too simplistic. 

Man A gets a pay increase,  the product he produces increases in price. Man B buys this product but unless he buys it daily then how on earth can he need a pay increase? True socialist control of means of production would feed back any surplus to society as a whole. 

Amazing! And I thought the loony left finally died when Corbyn was ousted.

Socialist control has never benefitted society as a whole anywhere, ever; not even China - and it never will. Socialism is designed to benefit a tiny few at the expense of those who's interests they claim to represent.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Too simplistic. 

Man A gets a pay increase,  the product he produces increases in price. Man B buys this product but unless he buys it daily then how on earth can he need a pay increase? True socialist control of means of production would feed back any surplus to society as a whole. 

Absolutely spot on

The biggest issue facing the Westernised world at the moment is the amassing of wealth by a few extraordinarily wealthy and privileged individuals. There are of course many other issues, some of which are sizeable, but like any good magician, while we all focus on things like migration, equality, diversity and other distractions, the working masses are being robbed blind. 

[Westward]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

the working masses are being robbed blind. 

Same old same old.

Why not prioritise an education, pass exams up to A level, slog through a 1st class degree in a "real" subject at a "proper" university and get accepted on a grad scheme with a major employer. Then be willing to put in 12 hour days for years, just like one of my sons who is now reaping the rewards.

No one got rich sitting on their backside and whining about how unfair it all is.

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Westward said:

Same old same old.

Why not prioritise an education, pass exams up to A level, slog through a 1st class degree in a "real" subject at a "proper" university and get accepted on a grad scheme with a major employer. Then be willing to put in 12 hour days for years, just like one of my sons who is now reaping the rewards.

No one got rich sitting on their backside and whining about how unfair it all is.

I think you've made some very inaccurate assumptions about my background and situation to be honest.

[oowee]

On 28/12/2022 at 07:32, manthing said:

 

Wealth is created by the workers???

If it wasn't for the ideas people what would the workers do for work?

The ideas people are the ones that stand the cost until an idea starts making money and they can afford to go further into debt to get the workers to do the work to make the idea work on a bigger scale to service the debt.

 

You forgot the financiers that pay for the ideas to be made. They do the least but earn the most. 

[Jaymo]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

You forgot the financiers that pay for the ideas to be made. They do the least but earn the most. 

But take the biggest gamble. 
 

[Yellow Bear]

8 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

But take the biggest gamble. 
 

I read somewhere that only 1 "investment" in 4 makes money 2 "break even" and 1 makes a big loss.

[henry d]

2 hours ago, Westward said:

Amazing! And I thought the loony left finally died when Corbyn was ousted.

Socialist control has never benefitted society as a whole anywhere, ever; not even China - and it never will. Socialism is designed to benefit a tiny few at the expense of those who's interests they claim to represent.

Amazing, I was pointing out what socialism is in this context and all of a sudden I'm the loony left...

[Vince Green]

5 hours ago, henry d said:

Too simplistic. 

Man A gets a pay increase,  the product he produces increases in price. Man B buys this product but unless he buys it daily then how on earth can he need a pay increase? True socialist control of means of production would feed back any surplus to society as a whole. 

Nieve Henry very Nieve. Ridiculously nieve in fact.

That may have been almost possible in 1700s when a farmer grew his crops and sold them off the back of his cart in the local market town. Then went back to his farm and paid his workers.

Today the food we eat is largely produced abroad.  The clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the fuel that runs the cars and the coal that powers our power station all comes from abroad. Totally out of any control by us socialist or otherwise.

You talk of true socialist control. That's a pipe dream. We have no ability to control our economy because its not "our" economy to control 

Socialism is a nice idea but it belongs in the past as an anachronism 

[12gauge82]

I don't believe the old capitalism vs socialism or left vs right is the problem these days and is little more than a distraction from the real problems of today. 

[henry d]

33 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Nieve Henry very Nieve. Ridiculously nieve in fact.

That may have been almost possible in 1700s when a farmer grew his crops and sold them off the back of his cart in the local market town. Then went back to his farm and paid his workers

OK let's just work with this first. 

I presume you mean naive, which is incorrect usage of the word as I  indicated above I have knowledge of socialism, whether it works now has nothing to do with it. 

Secondly  what you describe is a form of capitalism as the farm is owned (by the farmer not the workers).

Next I was going to write more but I can't be bothered as you need to do a bit of work yourself I can't do it for you. Just Google socialism/means of production or wallow in your ignorance. 

[oowee]

12 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I don't believe the old capitalism vs socialism or left vs right is the problem these days and is little more than a distraction from the real problems of today. 

+1 The problems we have are a reflection of the failure of Govt (of either persuasion) to manage the changing world in which we live. The system of Govt we have is incapable of making either the tough decisions or the long term strategic investment decisions the country needs.  

Removing the protective shields of standards and barriers to market entry simply leads to greater exposure to world markets. The problems we have now are likely to be exacerbated. 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

+1 The problems we have are a reflection of the failure of Govt (of either persuasion) to manage the changing world in which we live. The system of Govt we have is incapable of making either the tough decisions or the long term strategic investment decisions the country needs.  

Removing the protective shields of standards and barriers to market entry simply leads to greater exposure to world markets. The problems we have now are likely to be exacerbated. 

That's largely because no government has control of the external factors that drive our economy any more. America and Europe both going the same way.

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

That's largely because no government has control of the external factors that drive our economy any more. America and Europe both going the same way.

 

I was going to post the same but exactly this! Globalisation in action, works great for the elites, not so good for the average man. 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

That's largely because no government has control of the external factors that drive our economy any more. America and Europe both going the same way.

 

 

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I was going to post the same but exactly this! Globalisation in action, works great for the elites, not so good for the average man. 

Complete tosh. Its largely because of the first past the post 4 year short term political system we have. Whoever promises either the moon or better than we have now gets in and the moon never arrives and the next government will always be better.

Regardless of global influence we could have a stable policy on transport, education, health, social care. 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

 

Complete tosh. Its largely because of the first past the post 4 year short term political system we have. Whoever promises either the moon or better than we have now gets in and the moon never arrives and the next government will always be better.

Regardless of global influence we could have a stable policy on transport, education, health, social care. 

I think that has something going for it - but how does it get fixed? A third party rarely gets more than gesture votes. I feel the west has polarised voters of all but equal proportions.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Dave-G

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

I think that has something going for it - but how does it get fixed? A third party rarely gets more than gesture votes. I feel the west has polarised voters of all but equal proportions.

 

Perhaps the MP'S could be paid on outcomes? Didn't get it done, don't get paid just London living wage. 

[Westward]

22 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think you've made some very inaccurate assumptions about my background and situation to be honest.

It wasn't directed at you personally.

To explain. What I find incomprehensible is the lack of appreciation in the more deprived areas that education is important and is just as accessible to them as to those in the middle class areas.

I keep hearing reports that poorer people have worse education - and they're always loaded with the underlying implication that it's worse simply because they poorer. My attitude is that it's really the other way around; they're poorer because they don't prioritise education and they don't comprehend aspiration so, as they did themselves, their children leave school as soon as possible, meaning that mostly they can only get carp jobs.

Twenty years go by and the seething envy so many have for those who've done better in life is revved up by the Mick Lynch type of rabble rousing oratory and the usual demands for better pay and conditions (which is always code for more money).

Sigh! And so it goes on, generation after generation.

[Yellow Bear]

56 minutes ago, henry d said:

Perhaps the MP'S could be paid on outcomes? Didn't get it done, don't get paid just London living wage. 

Better off applying this to the civil servants.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Yellow Bear

[Vince Green]

12 minutes ago, Westward said:

It wasn't directed at you personally.

To explain. What I find incomprehensible is the lack of appreciation in the more deprived areas that education is important and is just as accessible to them as to those in the middle class areas.

I keep hearing reports that poorer people have worse education - and they're always loaded with the underlying implication that it's worse simply because they poorer. My attitude is that it's really the other way around; they're poorer because they don't prioritise education and they don't comprehend aspiration so, as they did themselves, their children leave school as soon as possible, meaning that mostly they can only get carp jobs.

Twenty years go by and the seething envy so many have for those who've done better in life is revved up by the Mick Lynch type of rabble rousing oratory and the usual demands for better pay and conditions (which is always code for more money).

Sigh! And so it goes on, generation after generation.

So true

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I think that has something going for it - but how does it get fixed? A third party rarely gets more than gesture votes. I feel the west has polarised voters of all but equal proportions.

 

I don't see a way out unfortunately. We will continue with ever more polarised politics as our standard of living declines to meet that of the new rising nations.  The gap between rich and poor will increase. It will fortunately be a long burn. 

If I had to guess I would say that at some point when we have some National critical event ( food, climate, resource or energy crisis) and the rioting is well advanced that some sort of unity government may find a way out backed by the IMF.   It's either that or the traditional way of famine, war or plague. 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

If I had to guess I would say that at some point when we have some National critical event ( food, climate, resource or energy crisis) and the rioting is well advanced that some sort of unity government may find a way out backed by the IMF.   It's either that or the traditional way of famine, war or plague. 

More like a police state to 'regain control' a temporary measure that never really ends.

But whats this about the IMF backing a unity government, why would a foreign bank support a UK government, unless there was something in it for them ?
Its like asking the EU to take over governing the country because the elected one messed up ?

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

More like a police state to 'regain control' a temporary measure that never really ends.

But whats this about the IMF backing a unity government, why would a foreign bank support a UK government, unless there was something in it for them ?
Its like asking the EU to take over governing the country because the elected one messed up ?

Last bail out from the IMF was 1976. Strings attached of course.