Plymouth Shooting Enquiry

[Westley]

The Darne is probably best left with the French  !     🤣

[wymberley]

40 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, no one wants to touch them.  Not common in the UK, but there are more in France and the US.  I'm not surprised the FEO hadn't seen one before.

 

Apparently in France driven shooting is now on the increase whereas previously walked up was the more popular and accounts for the light weight of their guns - Darne and Chapuis for example.

[Agriv8]

Update on the bbc 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64547027

so we carry the can of more rigouros applications and costs because of this lack of action or joining the dots !

I know in hindsight and there has been loss off life something we / I should not loose sight of.

but the root of the problem lies with Plymouth police?

rant mode off

Agriv8

[Dave-G]

Seems the licencing manager wasn't even aware the high risk holder had a licence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64375316

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Agriv8 said:

Update on the bbc 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64547027

so we carry the can of more rigouros applications and costs because of this lack of action or joining the dots !

I know in hindsight and there has been loss off life something we / I should not loose sight of.

but the root of the problem lies with Plymouth police?

rant mode off

Agriv8

 

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Seems the licencing manager wasn't even aware the high risk holder had a licence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64375316

Truely shocking!!!

[wymberley]

"HMIC summary is quoted

 

Mr Adamson reads the HMIC summary to the court which states: "We cannot make our position any clearer: it is now for others to accept the need for change. If they do, perhaps the life of the next victim of firearms misuse might be saved. What is highly likely is that, if change is not effected, there will be another tragedy."

 

It's a very clear statement, says Supt Davis."

 

The above from earlier in the inquest. Mr Adamson, the families' solicitor, has now specifically said that there is a need for just one certificate to cover both firearms and shotguns as he can't see any reason for having two. If he gets his way are we up for a Waffenbesitzcarte and could a Jagdschein possibly follow on?

 

 

 

 

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, wymberley said:

"HMIC summary is quoted

 

Mr Adamson reads the HMIC summary to the court which states: "We cannot make our position any clearer: it is now for others to accept the need for change. If they do, perhaps the life of the next victim of firearms misuse might be saved. What is highly likely is that, if change is not effected, there will be another tragedy."

 

It's a very clear statement, says Supt Davis."

 

The above from earlier in the inquest. Mr Adamson, the families' solicitor, has now specifically said that there is a need for just one certificate to cover both firearms and shotguns as he can't see any reason for having two. If he gets his way are we up for a Waffenbesitzcarte and could a Jagdschein possibly follow on?

 

 

 

 

Thereby making all firearms S1 and ‘good reason’ for each, plus variations to trade a shotgun etc? 
Plus an increased workload for licensing and still no improvements in public safety. 🤷‍♂️

Sounds about right. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Scully

[Dave-G]

Well that's worked out well for the police not being culpable for their errors... yet again.

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

Well that's worked out well for the police not being culpable for their errors... yet again.

Quite unbelievable isn't it!  The shooting Orgs should be pooling resources to legally challenge these ridiculous findings.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Thereby making all firearms S1 and ‘good reason’ for each, plus variations to trade a shotgun etc? 

This seems likely given current FEO activities in Notts.
Ive been speaking to prospective new members to my Sec 1 club , who have been asked to do things far outside of the HO guidelines in gaining a Sec 2 shotgun certificate.
A certain number of clay lessons with a recognised trainer, a certain number of attendances on the clays with an existing cert holder, and the best one 'Joining a Sec 1 firearms club will help your application'

I believe Sec 2 going , is a foregone conclusion, and was decided many months ago.

Like has been said, rather than blaming the ineptness of D + C licensing staff , they are going to blame the system of licensing per se, something which will cause a further tranche of licence holders to give up their certs, rather than jump through further hoops.
BASC are strangely silent on the matter, but I would be very surprised if they havent had the heads up on this.

[Scully]

If only we had an effective organisation/s to point out to those who matter, that there is nothing wrong with the licensing system, but much wrong with those supposedly administering it. 🤷‍♂️

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

If only we had an effective organisation/s to point out to those who matter, that there is nothing wrong with the licensing system, but much wrong with those supposedly administering it. 🤷‍♂️

Oh come now!  

That will NEVER happen!  

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

If only we had an effective organisation/s to point out to those who matter, that there is nothing wrong with the licensing system, but much wrong with those supposedly administering it. 🤷‍♂️

My former MP was very good at taking up matters shooting related when I wrote in - and I always got an individual, relevant and positive reply that addressed the issue and stated what he was going to do. 

Unfortunately, he retired (and has since died) and the replacement appears to be at best useless and probably 'anti shooting' judging by her standard "thank you for writing to your MP" standard 'one size fits all' replies that don't even address the question when I have raised a shooting matter.

[Vince Green]

'The story' among those that I know in Cornwall is that the shooter Jake Davison had his shotgun taken off him after an alleged assault on two individuals.

The shotgun was returned to him when the two individuals refused ( or more likely were afraid) to press charges. Leaving the police with no proof.

There is evidence of a long history of troubled behaviour and mental health issues but these were handled through education services and social services so maybe police and his GP were unaware.

He was definitely not a suitable person but it raises the thorny question of how do the police find out ?

The FEO in court looks very much like the sacrificial lamb

 

 

[Windswept]

9 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The shotgun was returned to him when the two individuals refused ( or more likely were afraid) to press charges. Leaving the police with no proof.

That doesn't seem to match up with the evidence provided by various people at the inquest such as this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64428960 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64559397

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

but it raises the thorny question of how do the police find out ?

Genuine questions (i.e. - I don't know the answers - not just trying to provoke!)

When someone undergoes the various checks that have to take place to supervise kids, disabled etc. (called DBS check and advanced DBS check I think) would this not reveal any previous record of violence, threats, dangers?

Similarly, people who work in sensitive roles in employment have various forms of checks/clearances carried out.  Can none of these be 'leveraged' to glean suitability information?

Personally, I would be quite happy to have these types of checks done for SCG and/or FAC - just as I would if I happened to be applying for an employment/voluntary post requiring them.  Anyone who would not be happy might need to accept that they won't get an SGC or FAC.  I am all for the Police applying the present law properly - and that does mean thorough checks are needed.

[mossy835]

they cant do any thing about knife crime,what can be done,but they keep picking on us gun owners,

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There is evidence of a long history of troubled behaviour and mental health issues but these were handled through education services and social services so maybe police and his GP were unaware.

One of his referees was a teacher, shes seemed unaware  of his violent past at school, despite having reservations about him Wanting an SGC.

 

32 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

He was definitely not a suitable person but it raises the thorny question of how do the police find out ?

Due dilligence would be good , something not practiced in this case.

 

33 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The FEO in court looks very much like the sacrificial lamb

No , WE are the sacrificial lamb, the law abiding shooting public.

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

they cant do any thing about knife crime,what can be done,but they keep picking on us gun owners,

Read a good one the other day , a 16 and 18 year old got into a bit of a tussle outside a Notts college , both produced their err, weapons , in this case , an 18 inch bladed machete , and a large combat 'Rambo' style knife, and as one onlooker said , started sword fighting.
The longer blade won the day , with the other combatant receiving a  serious slash to the back, after he realised it wasnt quite like in the ninja movies , and spinning around like an idiot was stoopid.
There is some debate about what started medieval combat on the streets , but both lads have been released on bail, pending whether they need Crown court for sentencing .

What happened to getting tough on knife crime ?

[Penelope]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Read a good one the other day , a 16 and 18 year old got into a bit of a tussle outside a Notts college , both produced their err, weapons , in this case , an 18 inch bladed machete , and a large combat 'Rambo' style knife, and as one onlooker said , started sword fighting.
The longer blade won the day , with the other combatant receiving a  serious slash to the back, after he realised it wasnt quite like in the ninja movies , and spinning around like an idiot was stoopid.
There is some debate about what started medieval combat on the streets , but both lads have been released on bail, pending whether they need Crown court for sentencing .

What happened to getting tough on knife crime ?

Probably became wasist or something along those lines.

[Scully]

A report on the BBC radio news at 4 reported the CI for D&C had told the inquiry today, that the individual should never have had his shotgun returned to him and blamed a breakdown in the unit ( I’m assuming he means the licensing unit ) and he also mentioned financial restraints. 
At least he appears to have had the honesty not to blame the licensing system. 

[Vince Green]

40 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Genuine questions (i.e. - I don't know the answers - not just trying to provoke!)

When someone undergoes the various checks that have to take place to supervise kids, disabled etc. (called DBS check and advanced DBS check I think) would this not reveal any previous record of violence, threats, dangers?

Similarly, people who work in sensitive roles in employment have various forms of checks/clearances carried out.  Can none of these be 'leveraged' to glean suitability information?

Personally, I would be quite happy to have these types of checks done for SCG and/or FAC - just as I would if I happened to be applying for an employment/voluntary post requiring them.  Anyone who would not be happy might need to accept that they won't get an SGC or FAC.  I am all for the Police applying the present law properly - and that does mean thorough checks are needed.

It seems that what happens in the educational system stays in the educational system provided that it doesn't actually involve criminal prosecution. Other than that their concerns were not shared

As has been said in the past with regard to paedophile. A clean DBS check just means they haven't been caught, it doesn't mean they aren't a paedophile.

All these checks can only go so far. We have said ourselves on here, and I have said it myself. People hide what they don't want to be known

[Vince Green]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

This seems likely given current FEO activities in Notts.
Ive been speaking to prospective new members to my Sec 1 club , who have been asked to do things far outside of the HO guidelines in gaining a Sec 2 shotgun certificate.
A certain number of clay lessons with a recognised trainer, a certain number of attendances on the clays with an existing cert holder, and the best one 'Joining a Sec 1 firearms club will help your application'

I believe Sec 2 going , is a foregone conclusion, and was decided many months ago.

Like has been said, rather than blaming the ineptness of D + C licensing staff , they are going to blame the system of licensing per se, something which will cause a further tranche of licence holders to give up their certs, rather than jump through further hoops.
BASC are strangely silent on the matter, but I would be very surprised if they havent had the heads up on this.

I have heard all sorts of made up requirements to grant a SGC. Proof of a permission, proof of a clay club membership, a safe for ammo being three common ones.

There is a female FEO in West Sussex causing chaos at the moment with made up rules I am reliably informed.

Modern building techniques are making it hard to fit cabinets in new build homes is another issue I have heard more than once.

I think the organisations are pretty much aware of what's going on and intervening to challenge incorrect rules.

The Muzzle Loaders are very good and I know the NRA has intervened recently and helped a friend 

 

[wymberley]

The police have apologised for returning the shotgun and admitted they should not have done.

Expect change to the licensing - the single certificate idea is gathering pace.

The Force is one of  three at the Shooting Show offering advice

[Scully]

I genuinely believe the police as a licensing authority are a body no longer fit for purpose, but have no idea what the alternative is. Meanwhile we are all vulnerable to one cock up after another.