Millside Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 Long story short. Many years ago I had a local gunsmith replace a broken firing pin in the bottom barrel of a 12g O/U I have. Since then I have discovered that the firing pin is marginally too long. This means that if you dissasemble the gun to clean the barrels, with the gun uncocked and the firing pins in the fired position, when you try to fit the barrels back onto the stock, as you close the gun the barrels snag and hang up on the bottom firing pin. Is there any way to cock the gun to retract the firing pins and enable the barrels to be reinstalled? Hopefully that made sense. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 What gun is it - many have floating pins that will move back if the gun is assembled vertically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted April 18, 2023 Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 Sounds like the pin was badly made as the shoulders (which normally prevent entry too far into the breech) are too deep. The easiest fix may either be another new pin of the correct dimensions. Was it a certain Aberdeen gunsmith who used to be at the Hardgate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 1 hour ago, jall25 said: What gun is it - many have floating pins that will move back if the gun is assembled vertically Its an Emilio Rizzini Sporter and the pins are sprung. When you press them you feel the spring pushing back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2023 59 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Sounds like the pin was badly made as the shoulders (which normally prevent entry too far into the breech) are too deep. The easiest fix may either be another new pin of the correct dimensions. Was it a certain Aberdeen gunsmith who used to be at the Hardgate? No, not said gunsmith. Right now I would settle for being able to reassemble it. I assume there is no way to cock it and retract the firing pins? What hope is there that the firing pins are identical, If swapped the longer pin would not foul the gun if it were in the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Millside said: Its an Emilio Rizzini Sporter and the pins are sprung. When you press them you feel the spring pushing back. Can you not assemble and fit snap caps into the barrel and these will push the pin back as you close the gun ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 Hello, I had that with an O/U years ago, stripped the action and reduced the length of pins so they came flush to the face, can you not take off the side plate at see if you can do same, ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, I had that with an O/U years ago, stripped the action and reduced the length of pins so they came flush to the face, can you not take off the side plate at see if you can do same, ? Hello, PW member gunman might be able to advise more although not seen him on here a while, I was lucky as a friend was local gunsmith, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 There will be rods/levers that are pushed back I think. Normally done as the gun is opened. I don't know that specific make/model and assume it is the two sliding square rods on the bottom of the action? Please do get confirmation from someone who knows for certain before trying because; These things need quite a lot of pressure to cock the mainsprings - and a slip/mistake can cause injury/damage. I have done s/s and sidelock o/u guns on a hard wood block. I'm fairly sure it will be quite easy, but I suspect you will need a 'tool' of some sort to do it safely (even if the tool is a a suitably trimmed wooden 'pusher') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 How are you taking gun apart with it in the unlocked position with pins sticking out you must be using snap caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 2 hours ago, snow white said: How are you taking gun apart with it in the unlocked position with pins sticking out you must be using snap caps. Guilty as charged on the snap caps. Having opened the gun c/w snap caps fired, I am guessing the snap caps flying out and hitting the wall, distracted me enough to not continue on to full open and cocking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, Millside said: Guilty as charged on the snap caps. Having opened the gun c/w snap caps fired, I am guessing the snap caps flying out and hitting the wall, distracted me enough to not continue on to full open and cocking. I think there may be a 'timing' issue because as I understand it, the locks should be cocked before the ejectors trip? Please correct me if I have this wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 If I remember what you will have to do is put forend up to action with out the barrel then press really hard on the lot to recock it takes some doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 5 hours ago, jall25 said: Can you not assemble and fit snap caps into the barrel and these will push the pin back as you close the gun ? I double checked and also tried a couple of spent cartridges, however it's the bottom edge of the barrels that are fouling the firing pin, so prior to the cartridges making contact. This image shows the faint mark on the underside of the barrels. 4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said: Hello, I had that with an O/U years ago, stripped the action and reduced the length of pins so they came flush to the face, can you not take off the side plate at see if you can do same, ? If i get to that stage I will probably just get the gunsmith to look at it again. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 42 minutes ago, snow white said: If I remember what you will have to do is put forend up to action with out the barrel then press really hard on the lot to recock it takes some doing And @JohnfromUK I think you are correct regards cocking, it has to be a straight push, although a fair amount of force would be needed if you thing about the weight of a fore end c/w barrels. The attached images show the forend offered up to the mechanism. If you then rotate the forend down, it moves away from the mechanism. when fitted it would stay tight and cock the gun. Thats at least how it looks to me. I feel I can but try (with great care) to push back and cock one barrel at a time, using timber products and a protected vice. In the second image you can see just how far out the firing pin is compared to the top barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Millside said: Thats at least how it looks to me. I feel I can but try (with great care) to push back and cock one barrel at a time, using timber products and a protected vice. I think you are right. Either a wooden 'pusher' or possibly brass? My concern would be slipping and with the forces involved, bloodshed is a possibility! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wylye Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 When you eventually get it back together, next time you want to clean it don't b*gger about like this. Just clean the thing and leave the gun cocked, I promise you, it will not hurt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 Update @JohnfromUK and all, I am glad to report that cocking the gun manually was a reasonably straightforward process and all parties returned unscathed. It required a reasonable degree of force but with the butt and mechanism in a vice, the butt held in one hand and the butt slightly elevated so the cocking rods were flat level, it was a straight push back with the head of a pin hammer wrapped in insulating tape. FWIW, the lower barrel required less force than the upper barrel. As to why it happens, the gun must eject and then cock? Thus the problem occurs if cartridges/snap caps eject, you then don't follow through to cocking and instead close and disassemble the gun without the gun cocked and the firing pins retracted. Every day is a school day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow white Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 You have got to push really hard on the forend think about it being on the barrel and you have to do the same action but with out the barrel put loads of towels round it so if it does slip you want be on way to A/E . the front cocking sears on the the forend have got to push the sears back in the action when you have done it let we all know that have give you some advice and the next bit and best bit throw the ruddy snap caps away you don’t need them how many guns are the on the walls in gun shops all in the cocked position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 22 minutes ago, Millside said: As to why it happens, the gun must eject and then cock? Firstly, I'm glad you got it sorted. On the cocking before ejecting, one of my guns, a Beretta S57, has a slight 'overreach' - i.e. it springs back very slightly from fully open. This can make it slightly slow to load the new cartridge into the lower barrel. I took it to a gunsmith who advised to 'leave alone' because he said (and it is 30 + years ago, so I hope I have this right!) that he could adjust the cocking, but only at the risk that it might then eject before cocking - which could be a much more annoying fault because ..... you open the gun until it ejects, reload and next bird over ........ nothing happens as gun not cocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millside Posted April 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 18 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Firstly, I'm glad you got it sorted. On the cocking before ejecting, one of my guns, a Beretta S57, has a slight 'overreach' - i.e. it springs back very slightly from fully open. This can make it slightly slow to load the new cartridge into the lower barrel. I took it to a gunsmith who advised to 'leave alone' because he said (and it is 30 + years ago, so I hope I have this right!) that he could adjust the cocking, but only at the risk that it might then eject before cocking - which could be a much more annoying fault because ..... you open the gun until it ejects, reload and next bird over ........ nothing happens as gun not cocked. Thanks and I think I know what happened. To test your theory of cocking before ejecting (which is I agree completely logical) I have fired and broken the gun mm by mm and it does cock before ejecting. Soooooo, I can only assume that with the gun fired and snap caps in, I got home, removed the forend and THEN broke the gun. Doh!!! The daft part is i only had the gun out because its not been out of the cabinet for many years and I wanted to double check it was 100% as I need to get it sold and create cabinet space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 (edited) WHY do you need to put the snap caps in to take the gun home ?? Leave them at home. Edited April 19, 2023 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 I'm glad all has ended well - but I have to admit I am with the 'anti snap cap' group here. I own snap caps - and I use them - but only when checking the gun or investigating possible problems - such as a recent case of what might be called 'premature ejection' - which turned out to be a small bit of dirt/grit causing the cocking lever (which in that gun trips the ejector) to trip unexpectedly and pop out live cartridges. I never leave snap caps in a gun. I have guns over 100 years old that have to my certain knowledge been standing with both the mainsprings and the ejector springs cocked and never a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wylye Posted April 19, 2023 Report Share Posted April 19, 2023 ^^ This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted April 20, 2023 Report Share Posted April 20, 2023 (edited) I only use snap caps in 2 of my 7 guns, they are both S x S guns with V springs and only come out for 3 or 4 days each game season. The snap caps remain in the gun cupboard, if the guns are in use though. Edited April 20, 2023 by Westley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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