Hortonium lead shot alternative

[GunQuarter]

10 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

12 bore, 2 1/2" cartridges, Eley #5 bismuth, 1 1/8 ounce in my late father's Henry Clarke, both barrels taken out from their quite tight chokes to IMP and IMP when Malcolm Cruxton was still on Price Street and still did choke boring.

He never did full barrel boring, that would have been Brian Bateman or us. Most likely Brian. Yes it does work better with open chokes as wads have to be cupped as it's harder than lead and far more brittle.

[GunQuarter]

8 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

10 meters ? really who shoots game at 10 meters, you could not put a birds shot at 10 meters into the food chain, is it shattering at 30 meters ?

Modern bismuth shot now has a lot more tin in it to stop the shattering, did you check with the cartridge manufacture from the batch number how recent they are ? as i bet they sit on the shelf for quite a long time given their price.

 

You aren't understanding the point of the test. No one shoots birds at 10 metres. We were testing the amount of shot lost through the barrel in a tight choke. To do that we had to shoot at 10 metres to reduce the spread so we hit a significant sized piece of ballistic clay. The shot in that short distance had reduced by 30+% as it had broken up in the barrel.

The fact some game dealers are starting to refuse birds shot with Bismuth means they won't get in the food chain. They are refusing them as it can and does shatter in the meat too.

I'm that instance large shoots will insist on only steel being used. Alternative is they put them in a ditch. That's the start of the end of our sport.

So for those reasons. Bismuth doesn't work very well. 

[rbrowning2]

4 minutes ago, GunQuarter said:

You aren't understanding the point of the test. No one shoots birds at 10 metres. We were testing the amount of shot lost through the barrel in a tight choke. To do that we had to shoot at 10 metres to reduce the spread so we hit a significant sized piece of ballistic clay. The shot in that short distance had reduced by 30+% as it had broken up in the barrel.

The fact some game dealers are starting to refuse birds shot with Bismuth means they won't get in the food chain. They are refusing them as it can and does shatter in the meat too.

I'm that instance large shoots will insist on only steel being used. Alternative is they put them in a ditch. That's the start of the end of our sport.

So for those reasons. Bismuth doesn't work very well. 

But how do you know it was broken within the barrel rather than the pellet had sufficient energy at just 10 meters to break when impacting with the ballistic clay?  which it may not do at 30 meters with a lot less energy when it hits a bird.

Would be useful to see high speed camera footage of the bismuth pellets leaving the muzzle plus a few meters past.

30% is a lot of shot to lose if what you say is the norm for bismuth shot, did you discuss the findings with the cartridge manufacturer?

 

[GunQuarter]

10 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

But how do you know it was broken within the barrel rather than the pellet had sufficient energy at just 10 meters to break when impacting with the ballistic clay?  which it may not do at 30 meters with a lot less energy when it hits a bird.

Would be useful to see high speed camera footage of the bismuth pellets leaving the muzzle plus a few meters past.

30% is a lot of shot to lose if what you say is the norm for bismuth shot, did you discuss the findings with the cartridge manufacturer?

 

We know because we counted the pellets in the clay Vs the average pellet count in the cartridge. That is through a full choke.

Bismuth is okish when shooting through open chokes and pushing 1250fps. That's ok for a 30 metre shot. It does still break up a bit and can again do so in the bird. Bismuth is a fragile metal, even if you add a bit of tin as they don't molecular bond.

But is awful at 1450fps through a full choke which is what you'd need for birds at 50-70 metres. Then steel is also not great at that distance, simple physics of kinetic energy and defamation of shot or lack of it on impact.

[rbrowning2]

22 minutes ago, GunQuarter said:

We know because we counted the pellets in the clay Vs the average pellet count in the cartridge. That is through a full choke.

Bismuth is okish when shooting through open chokes and pushing 1250fps. That's ok for a 30 metre shot. It does still break up a bit and can again do so in the bird. Bismuth is a fragile metal, even if you add a bit of tin as they don't molecular bond.

But is awful at 1450fps through a full choke which is what you'd need for birds at 50-70 metres. Then steel is also not great at that distance, simple physics of kinetic energy and defamation of shot or lack of it on impact.

I think we could have a very interesting discussion about if you need 1450fps with Bismuth and also high bird shooting 50 -70meters.   Looks like you are marketing your shot at such shooters.

In the USA there was shot called niceshot, which behaved and could be used like lead, some did come to the U.K. but not seen it for a long time.

Wish you good luck with the venture.

 

[GunQuarter]

We aren't marketing it at anyone in particular. We've invented something that is c10% cheaper than Bismuth that works like lead and is actually better than Bismuth. That you can shoot through full chokes and with pressures used on the very best lead cartridges. So it suits everyone and becomes a choice for people.

You have to imagine a world where lead is banned, you cannot buy it. As we stand today your options are steel (can't use old guns despite what BASC say, they aren't gunsmiths, we are and we see the affect of steel on any gun), it wounds more birds than lead due to ballistic characteristics and it can and does rust in birds if it oxidises. Bismuth which as we've discussed has limitations but if game dealers don't want birds shot with it, it ceases to be an option for many who shoot on commercial shoots. Tungsten is hard and has similar issue to steel in regard wadding required and suitability for older guns. Bio Ammo being a Bismuth/Tin/Antinomy mix still can't be shot at high velocity as they don't bond at a molecular level and come apart.

This leads to other problems. If you choose steel you can't really use an old gun and it will reduce the longevity of that gun. That reduces the value of them which we have seen in the market. You will see the market move to a more throw away type of gun ownership, buy something and use it for sub 10 years and throw away. You can't raise dents properly in chrome lined barrels and you can't hone them. So best guns would become a thing of the past, the number of gunsmiths would reduce massively as why would anyone pay to restock a gun with a short lifespan.

The lead ban is a huge threat to the entire industry and that was our reason and drive to find a solution.

[Windswept]

Are you able to say roughly what Hortonium contains yet? For example does it contain Bismuth at all?

Sounds very interesting to me as I shoot a .410s and .22LR a fair bit and there doesn't seem to anything that comes close to lead available. 

[GunQuarter]

54 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Are you able to say roughly what Hortonium contains yet? For example does it contain Bismuth at all?

Sounds very interesting to me as I shoot a .410s and .22LR a fair bit and there doesn't seem to anything that comes close to lead available. 

No we can't say yet, no. Patent is pending. We're looking to get it into the market at roughly the same time as patent granted. Then license in a sensible way to as many people as possible, that gives it longevity. We've shot 22 vs tenex and it works exactly the same at 50 metres.

[rbrowning2]

All sound very promising and interesting however this is principle a pigeon shooting forum and even at 10% less than bismuth steel shot will remain the goto shot if lead is banned. 

Hopefully as production quantity increases the cost will fall, also do sell just the shot for reloading.

[GunQuarter]

36 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

All sound very promising and interesting however this is principle a pigeon shooting forum and even at 10% less than bismuth steel shot will remain the goto shot if lead is banned. 

Hopefully as production quantity increases the cost will fall, also do sell just the shot for reloading.

We know that and it won't suit everyone. But if you choose to shoot an older gun or don't like steel it is an option. Actually when you look at the total cost of a cartridge, Hortonium would use standard fibre wads and less propellent than steel. Also if you choose to shoot 28g or any smaller calibres it would work better than steel. It works perfect for the sort of person who shoots on a syndicate for 8-10 days a year and wants to use his old grandfathers guns to do that. It just gives more choice and people pay their money and take the choice. Horses for courses and all that.

[Gas seal]

Hi well done with your shot development. If the shot and commercial loaded cartridges perform better than similar cartridges it will sell itself.  Yes this is a pigeon shooting website as a reloader it’s very interesting, considering not long ago we had (no )alternative to lead pellets. It’s all about testing and facts and figures. 

 If it’s available for reloading l can see wildfowlers putting it to the test 50 meters + as they do with any new shot. Could you please give information about the shot size in mm and a shot count for 28grams . It would be a bit expensive for pest control shooting and I’m not sure if pigeons would be taken by the animal feed industry. 
It seems that you have the answer to non lead and non plastic wad cartridges. Good luck with your new product.

[GunQuarter]

3 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi well done with your shot development. If the shot and commercial loaded cartridges perform better than similar cartridges it will sell itself.  Yes this is a pigeon shooting website as a reloader it’s very interesting, considering not long ago we had (no )alternative to lead pellets. It’s all about testing and facts and figures. 

 If it’s available for reloading l can see wildfowlers putting it to the test 50 meters + as they do with any new shot. Could you please give information about the shot size in mm and a shot count for 28grams . It would be a bit expensive for pest control shooting and I’m not sure if pigeons would be taken by the animal feed industry. 
It seems that you have the answer to non lead and non plastic wad cartridges. Good luck with your new product.

A 28 gram load in shot size 3 is c180 pellets. We have tested that at 55 metres with 1/2 choke and it patterns brilliantly. On a Hull pattern plate like attached, in the outline of the pheasant had 15 pellets in it (1 in head, two in chest and rest in abdomen and wings) and would have killed any feathered game without question. That was out of a cartridge pushing 1500fps+ at the muzzle with fibre wad. We've done over 50 pattern plate tests. Plus drop tests. plus cartridge pressure tests (not selling cartridges but need to know shot can cope with pressure). We really wouldn't have gone to trouble of patenting it and now doing all the hard sales if we weren't sure it 100% worked.

[enfieldspares]

9 hours ago, GunQuarter said:

As we stand today your options are steel (can't use old guns despite what BASC say, they aren't gunsmiths, we are and we see the affect of steel on any gun), it wounds more birds than lead due to ballistic characteristics and it can and does rust in birds if it oxidises.

Thank you. Proper sense from proper gunsmiths. Not Bill Harriman and BASC of whom the nearest he ever came to gunsmithing "in the trade" in Price Street and Loveday Street was sat in the basement on a  two miles away at 141 Bromsgrove Street when he worked at Weller and Dufty. He'd best stick to his excellent appraisals on "Antiques Roadshow"! If he wants to use steel shot in his guns then let him. I think time will show the folly of it.

This below was my father's, given to him, cased, new, in 1919 on his twelfth birthday. Henry Clarke fitted when bought for him with a Westley box ejector system. I have it now. It will not be being used with steel. Regardless of BASC's tommyrot the reality is, I am sure that the OP will concur, is that the issue with many guns of such age is that it is the action that also won't stand prolonged use of steel loaded cartridges. They perform differently.

Edited July 7, 2023 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

Because it's a big target a cock pheasant may, just, take sufficient pellet strikes from 182 pellets performing to the 1/2 choke spec' at 60 yards to ensure a clean kill, but it's marginal. For development purposes some 10 shots would be required to achieve a reasonably accurate average assessment which ensures that each shot provides the minimum required with every shot.

The generally accepted 1.5ftlbs is deemed the minimum requirement - and assuming sufficient pellets - to kill said cock pheasant. Starting off at the muzzle with 1500 ft/sec and with the size and weight specified above - and assuming the 1.5 is valid - then the 1.5 ftlbs is met at 55 yards. Because of the pellets' size, velocity and inferior (to lead) ballistic make up, this example contradicts the more usual 'pattern fails before energy' 

[GunQuarter]

4 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Thank you. Proper sense from proper gunsmiths. Not Bill Harriman and BASC of whom the nearest he ever came to gunsmithing "in the trade" in Price Street and Loveday Street was sat in the basement on a  two miles away at 141 Bromsgrove Street when he worked at Weller and Dufty. He'd best stick to his excellent appraisals on "Antiques Roadshow"! If he wants to use steel shot in his guns then let him. I think time will show the folly of it.

This below was my father's, given to him, cased, new, in 1919 on his twelfth birthday. Henry Clarke fitted when bought for him with a Westley box ejector system. I have it now. It will not be being used with steel. Regardless of BASC's tommyrot the reality is, I am sure that the OP will concur, is that the issue with many guns of such age is that it is the action that also won't stand prolonged use of steel loaded cartridges. They perform differently.

Thanks and a very nice example of a provincial boxlock which should be preserved. This is why we wanted to create an alternative, for people like you. If you can't shoot it, we can't repair it. Simple reasoning really.

[Gas seal]

Hi thanks for the information regarding your new shot it’s very interesting . I didn’t mean that you didn’t do any testing of your shot. 

 

 

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi thanks for the information regarding your new shot it’s very interesting . I didn’t mean that you didn’t do any testing of your shot. 

 

 

It is. All things being equal and if my maths are correct, a No 6 with a nice relaxed 1350 ft/sec MV1 will throw 1 ftlb at 35 yards and the No 5 similarly at 44 yards. All figures ish. I fancy that price would sadly put paid to use for pigeon, but it all looks very favourable for driven grouse or partridge.

Addendum: My wrist - not to mention my head - was hurting - I'm too old for this.

Pushing a No 4 at 1500 at the muzzle will give I.5 ftlbs at 44 yards. A solid mid range pheasant round. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by wymberley

[rbrowning2]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

It is. All things being equal and if my maths are correct, a No 6 with a nice relaxed 1350 ft/sec MV1 will throw 1 ftlb at 35 yards and the No 5 similarly at 44 yards. All figures ish. I fancy that price would sadly put paid to use for pigeon, but it all looks very favourable for driven grouse or partridge.

 

Am i understanding you correctly are you suggesting it would cost in as a pigeon cartridge? 10% less than bismuth in cost so around £1200 per 1000 cartridges.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by rbrowning2

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

Am i understanding you correctly are you suggesting it would cost in as a pigeon cartridge? 10% less than bismuth in cost so around £1200 per 1000 cartridges.

 

I’m still on my first glass of the evening. I meant - and thought I had - to say that the cost would put paid to their use with pigeon.

[wymberley]

Although it is appreciated that things take time and that 3 months is just a blink of an eye in the overall scheme of things, is there any progress on this?

[GunQuarter]

 I've put all the information into one page on our website. Including a drop test video. We've tested the hell out of this, it works perfectly and it just needs ammunition manufacturers to pick up the phone and order it (after March next year as machines being built now). https://www.hortonguns.com/?page_id=819 If you want it, contact Hull, Eley, Lyalvale and Gamebore and ask when it is available.

[holloway]

On 07/07/2023 at 07:57, GunQuarter said:

We know because we counted the pellets in the clay Vs the average pellet count in the cartridge. That is through a full choke.

Bismuth is okish when shooting through open chokes and pushing 1250fps. That's ok for a 30 metre shot. It does still break up a bit and can again do so in the bird. Bismuth is a fragile metal, even if you add a bit of tin as they don't molecular bond.

But is awful at 1450fps through a full choke which is what you'd need for birds at 50-70 metres. Then steel is also not great at that distance, simple physics of kinetic energy and defamation of shot or lack of it on impact.

This will all come as a real eye opener to all of the wild fowlers who have been using Bismuth to good effect for over 10 years .Are you sure your not just trying to discredit any competition to your new shot , (honestly mind ).

[rbrowning2]

lots of interesting information, but you do not need a muzzle velocity 1500 ft/sec to kill game and momentum/recoil will be high in a light game gun. Then Hortonium is shown at a lower density then Bismuth. I also disagree that bismuth needs a plastic cup wad.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Old farrier]

Thank you for the time and effort you have taken to create this product 

may I ask if you will be making it available for purchase by home loaders? 

[wymberley]

14 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for the time and effort you have taken to create this product 

may I ask if you will be making it available for purchase by home loaders? 

Hi, Have you seen the update in "Steel On A Sim Day" at Guns and Equip'?