What happens when we all go electric

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, 7daysinaweek said:

Hi John

I just asked mrs 7days about the cost with something like this though I do appreciate it could greatly differ. Her previous job was a financial accountant actuary for Bibby Marine and although she left them in 2015, the costings for when one of their cargo ships went 'belly up' ran into millions upon millions. She used to sign off the payments for specialist salvage consultants they used when they had a wrecked ship or damaged cargo. I think in her thirteen years or so with them they had one or two which went down with cars and all cargo. 

One consultant they used would be jetted out of the uk and the bill for the consultant costs alone could run into tens if not hundreds of thousands just for them to assess the damage and what was salvageable. The numbers were simply eye watering. Insurance costs from her mind for a medium to large container ship could be into the low millions to tens of millions depending on the type and size of cargo. depending on the nautical geographical area and risks associated with that said, it was a good way back then and surely any costs now must be a great deal more.

 

Just aside my brother in law is a chief officer on a oil and LNG supertanker that sails out of the Gulf states, he tells me that the ship fuel cost one way trip out and into Toykyo alone is about 1.5 million dollars for LNG and is a lot more for the 'black gold' (crude) as they call it. His company has a ship a day that arrives in Toykyo.

Thanks.  It's an expensive game - and when you see the price tag on a new car, no doubt that a significant element will relate to the cost of getting it (realistically an average of all that makers cars) from factory to dealer/showroom.

I had a few Honda cars a few years ago, and two were made in the USA (Ohio) and one in Swindon.  If I remember right, there was a standard 'delivery charge' which was the same for all Honda cars - wherever they were made.  Not sure if it had any connection with any real costs.

 

[7daysinaweek]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Thanks.  It's an expensive game - and when you see the price tag on a new car, no doubt that a significant element will relate to the cost of getting it (realistically an average of all that makers cars) from factory to dealer/showroom.

I had a few Honda cars a few years ago, and two were made in the USA (Ohio) and one in Swindon.  If I remember right, there was a standard 'delivery charge' which was the same for all Honda cars - wherever they were made.  Not sure if it had any connection with any real costs.

 

👍

[armsid]

On a side note we have the technology to build Airships powered by electric motors and non flammable gas to move about the world but everyone wants to there yesterday but could be something to keep our green friends happy

[TIGHTCHOKE]

22 hours ago, ditchman said:

there was a documentory made a few years ago ..about the shooting down of zepperlins at the beginning of the 1st world war..........

and im not sure but i think PC pigeon controller can confirm the experiments into hydrogen by vauxhall...as he was in the car industry i believe....

I thought you were going to suggest PC was shooting down zeppelins!   

[ditchman]

20 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I thought you were going to suggest PC was shooting down zeppelins!   

wally 

[Bigbob]

We go all electric the man will own us we will be dependant on the power station to charge them up , My boss at work bought one because his wife told  too and at the time  the university had put in two chargers in every car park they where free and it didnt take the locals long to find that out , anyway if my boss was just travelling to work for his shift he would plug it in for 4 hours and if it was after his days off he would leave it to charge for 12 hours i think he had it nearly a year before he got a charger fitted at home 

[old man]

On 31/07/2023 at 19:41, armsid said:

On a side note we have the technology to build Airships powered by electric motors and non flammable gas to move about the world but everyone wants to there yesterday but could be something to keep our green friends happy

I take it you jest about happiness and a green loon?

[JohnfromUK]

Interesting 'twist' on heatpump policy;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12380189/Heat-pumps-not-fitted-quiet-residential-areas-constant-humming-noisy-government-ministers-say.html

It seems that the noise from heatpumps may be an issue.  We had heatpumps fitted at the office before I retired - and yes, they were quite noisy - but it was on an 'industrial estate' (in fact mainly offices) and didn't cause any issues - and less noisy than the nearby M5 traffic.

At home, someone up the road has a new build (and high grade) with a heatpump - and I have noticed it when walking past, though it's not intrusive.  In fact probably less noisy than next doors condensing boiler, which has a flue exiting (about 10 feet up as their boiler is in the loft of a single story) over my drive.  It does also make a huge plume, but doesn't really bother me as I have no windows opening nearby.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

It seems that the noise from heatpumps may be an issue.  We had heatpumps fitted at the office before I retired - and yes, they were quite noisy - but it was on an 'industrial estate' (in fact mainly offices) and didn't cause any issues - and less noisy than the nearby M5 traffic.

Aztec West by any chance? 🤣

 

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

At home, someone up the road has a new build (and high grade) with a heatpump - and I have noticed it when walking past, though it's not intrusive.  In fact probably less noisy than next doors condensing boiler, which has a flue exiting (about 10 feet up as their boiler is in the loft of a single story) over my drive.  It does also make a huge plume, but doesn't really bother me as I have no windows opening nearby.

I have noticed the same thing.  I'm currently working right next to my open back door, and when the heat pump was running earlier to top up the hot water tank, it was no issue.  Most of the noise is that of the air being moved by the fan blades, sort of a low hum.

Next door's oil boiler exhaust, on the other hand, despite being >4 m away is much noisier.

I think people have memories of poorly-maintained, loud, air conditioning units on balconies when they're at some affordably priced concrete carbuncle on holiday on the 'Costa Packet', and assume a heat pump will be the same.

 

On 31/07/2023 at 19:41, armsid said:

On a side note we have the technology to build Airships powered by electric motors and non flammable gas to move about the world but everyone wants to there yesterday but could be something to keep our green friends happy

In my experience, our 'green friends' will oppose progress, good or bad.

However, there's a reason you don't see airships/dirigibles much.  Several, actually, but the big one is that they are affected by wind. That would play merry hell with being able to operate any kind of schedule, and even people on a 'cruise' need to book time off.

Also loading and unloading the damn things of passengers is...difficult, they need to be tethered and will 'weathercock' around their mooring. As for cargo - Newton's third law really screws that up.  What happens when you offload a large mass from something nominally neutrally buoyant?

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Aztec West by any chance?

No, near Tewkesbury, so miles away!

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

However, there's a reason you don't see airships/dirigibles much.

Slight aside, but the novelist Nevil Shute was (before he became a successful novelist) really an aeronautical engineer by training named Nevil Shute Norway.  He worked for Barnes Wallis (of dambusters bouncing bomb fame) on the R100 airship - and wrote an autobiography called "Slide Rule" about his time in the aviation industry, particularly airships - which is a very interesting read and gives a lot of background about the problems of airships.  The R100 is covered here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R100

[ditchman]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Slight aside, but the novelist Nevil Shute was (before he became a successful novelist) really an aeronautical engineer by training named Nevil Shute Norway.  He worked for Barnes Wallis (of dambusters bouncing bomb fame) on the R100 airship - and wrote an autobiography called "Slide Rule" about his time in the aviation industry, particularly airships - which is a very interesting read and gives a lot of background about the problems of airships.  The R100 is covered here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R100

they are still using the hanger it was built in....it has its own micro climate ..with clouds near the ceiling ...im told

[old man]

Talking of heatpump noise, we had the misfortune to have to stay in a holiday let with one. The almost never ending noise night and day was inescapable. Never again.

 

 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Talking of heatpump noise, we had the misfortune to have to stay in a holiday let with one. The almost never ending noise night and day was inescapable. Never again.

Something amiss there.  Mine's running right now 4 m away from me outside the door (which is open) topping up the hot water.  A low hum of air moving.

Shouldn't have been running day and night either, should only run when commanded to, same as a boiler.

So many bodgers in this country fitting kit badly and getting paid a fortune.

 

[Old farrier]

Not sure about this at all though I’m pretty sure there’s going to be as much carbon created making the electricity and the cars as it saves 

the worry is about them catching fire especially if you park next to one on a ferry or multi story car park not to mention buying one and putting it in the garage next to your house 

 Don’t think we’re ready for them yet  

[Yellow Bear]

59 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Something amiss there.  Mine's running right now 4 m away from me outside the door (which is open) topping up the hot water.  A low hum of air moving.

From personal experience of heat pumps you are lucky it is that quiet (or is your hearing going😉.  Most are quieter for the first 6/8 months on low load but as they age they get noisier.  This is worse on constant stop/start.   The engineer from one outfit when cornered by the client said the "noise had only risen a bit, about 6 dB".  The client reported back this comment with the view that it was not much so it must be other plant, it is however a quadrupling of the noise level.

[udderlyoffroad]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Most are quieter for the first 6/8 months on low load but as they age they get noisier. 

Interesting.  Time will tell.

On first pass though, it sounds like a lack of maintenance, specifically dirt build up reducing efficiency or bearings wearing.  There are relatively few moving parts, 2 fans in my case.  You'd hope the bearings were specc'd to last.

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

the worry is about them catching fire especially if you park next to one on a ferry or multi story car park not to mention buying one and putting it in the garage next to your house 

It's pretty much accepted that building regs will have to updated to reflect the thermal run-away fire risk.

A lot of EVs parked together in a multi-storey car park is probably not something you want.  At least not without sprinklers/water curtains to cool & protect the rest of the car park.

41 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Not to mention buying one and putting it in the garage next to your house 

You...park a car in your garage?  😂

31 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Don’t think we’re ready for them yet  

That's something of a logical fallacy - you're never 'ready' for disruptive technologies.

If only people could get their heads round the idea that EVs (or whatever personal transport) are not a 'drop in' replacement for ICE cars, in the same way ICE cars were not a drop in replacement for the horse and carriage.

[old man]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Something amiss there.  Mine's running right now 4 m away from me outside the door (which is open) topping up the hot water.  A low hum of air moving.

Shouldn't have been running day and night either, should only run when commanded to, same as a boiler.

So many bodgers in this country fitting kit badly and getting paid a fortune.

 

It was a nightmare.

Not sure water is the answer to a fire from ev?

Edited August 10, 2023 by old man

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Interesting.  Time will tell.

On first pass though, it sounds like a lack of maintenance, specifically dirt build up reducing efficiency or bearings wearing.  There are relatively few moving parts, 2 fans in my case.  You'd hope the bearings were specc'd to last.

It's pretty much accepted that building regs will have to updated to reflect the thermal run-away fire risk.

A lot of EVs parked together in a multi-storey car park is probably not something you want.  At least not without sprinklers/water curtains to cool & protect the rest of the car park.

You...park a car in your garage?  😂

That's something of a logical fallacy - you're never 'ready' for disruptive technologies.

If only people could get their heads round the idea that EVs (or whatever personal transport) are not a 'drop in' replacement for ICE cars, in the same way ICE cars were not a drop in replacement for the horse and carriage.

I probably worded it wrong 

I don’t think we are ready for electric vehicles yet in the science building manufacturing efficiency and safety aspects along with the charging infrastructure or the raw materials needed 

im sure they will eventually evolve to something that will suitably replace what we currently use at a price 

most of us have seen this before especially with vehicles 

along with the constant upgrades on computers and mobile phones 

I looked into a electric vehicle for a work vehicle couldn’t get insurance on it 

looked into a electric atv road legal same problem couldn’t get insurance so it’s not only the people it’s everything that goes with it that’s not ready 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Not sure water is the answer to a fire from ev?

I'm talking about using sprinklers or water curtains to cool the surroundings to prevent auto-ignition of other fuel sources during a an EV battery thermal runaway, in a public building such as a multi-storey car park.

You don't fight that kind of fire, you remove other sources of fuel near by, or at least keep them cool so they can't 'join in'.

I'm suggesting (as are a lot of people in construction/engineering), that building codes for buildings where EVs congregate in appreciable numbers, need to change, specifically to upgrade fire protection measures.

And yes, water is the answer.

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I looked into a electric vehicle for a work vehicle couldn’t get insurance on it 

looked into a electric atv road legal same problem couldn’t get insurance so it’s not only the people it’s everything that goes with it that’s not ready 

I'm just about to go through the annual rigamorale of trying to renew the insurance on my pickup.  You have a hard enough time convincing most insurers that a pickup could be privately owned and not used as commercial vehicle.  The insurance industry in this country really is the absolute pits & gets away with what it does because there is a legal requirement to have insurance.

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, old man said:

It was a nightmare.

Not sure water is the answer to a fire from ev?

im told the only way to tackle an EV fire is to lift it up and dump it in a container full of water......some fire services are slowly getting geared up to do this............bear in mind it will need a large uplift in your council tax to pay for this  !!!!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, ditchman said:

im told the only way to tackle an EV fire is to lift it up and dump it in a container full of water......some fire services are slowly getting geared up to do this............bear in mind it will need a large uplift in your council tax to pay for this  !!!!

I believe you are correct, several Fire Services now have containers on lift back lorries.

BUT it is more to REMOVE the OXYGEN than to extinguish the fire by dousing.

[.357shooter]

well the lights will go out as i know for a fact that in my local area there in no capacity left.the grid is maxed out.

[ditchman]

On 31/07/2023 at 19:41, armsid said:

On a side note we have the technology to build Airships powered by electric motors and non flammable gas to move about the world but everyone wants to there yesterday but could be something to keep our green friends happy

i have been told that Helium is a finite resorce and it is dwindleing ..........

[Vince Green]

My step daughter took nine hours to get down to Cornwall in her new company electric car. Previously about four hours in her petrol car.

How is this progress  ?