Bioammo composting 2yrs on.

[Konor]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC AGM is this Saturday.

Will percentage attendance rates remain in single figures? It seems that miniscule involvement from grass roots shooters has contributed to where we are but that doesn't  absolve BASC from representing those grass roots shooters best interests. Feigning ignorance of the real time biodegradability of these new wads doesn't cut it. 

[Old farrier]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I am not aware of any evidence of livestock ingesting plastic wads. Can you provide any?

I’m pretty sure they would ingest them if they were put into a pen and the floor was covered with thousands of them and mixed in with the food 

about the same way the science was carried out with wildfowl 

[Conor O'Gorman]

48 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m pretty sure they would ingest them if they were put into a pen and the floor was covered with thousands of them and mixed in with the food 

about the same way the science was carried out with wildfowl 

So you are 'pretty sure' that livestock will ingest plastic wads and you think that the science on wildfowl ingesting lead shot was in a pen with the floor covered in thousands of lead shot and mixed in with food? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

The most commonly used fibre wad is made from cellulose material caped at each end with a thin plastic material. So with the exception of the capping will biodegrade and certainly they look to do so in a matter of weeks, otherwise my local clay ground would be knee deep in them. But must also depend on the climate and where they fall.

When you say nobody is asking about the negative impact of plastic shotgun wads that depends on who the nobody is as certainly an acknowledged problem on the Danish foreshore. 

As has been said HSE, WJ are looking at lead not plastic wads, but a transition to steel shot and single use plastic wads would see a massive change in the number of plastic wads used given how popular fibre wads are for live quarry shooting in the U.K. Are we then not likely just to see WJ move from lead to plastic pollution?

7th May.

https://wildjustice.org.uk/lead-ammunition/game-meat-with-high-lead-levels-still-being-sold/

 

Thanks, yes, the prevalence of plastic cases and plastic wads in the marine environment in Denmark was studied in 2018 with the support of hunters and hunting clubs. Here is a quote from the 2018 paper:

"Hunting in modern society is a valued recreational activity that benefits from broadly favorable but not uncritical political and public perceptions. Any avoidable negative impact on the natural environment, ecosystems and human health, risks undermining the perception of hunting and threatens its long-term sustainability".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749117351424

Following that paper I think the Danish hunting association and the association of gundealers announced a phase out of plastic wads which I presume is ongoing. 

So far, moves in the UK to ban single use plastics have been on a case by case basis. And yes, at any point plastic wads could come under review - as we have seen with the HSE review of lead ammunition.

[Konor]

12 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

And yes, at any point plastic wads could come under review - as we have seen with the HSE review of lead ammunition.

And yet BASC chose to initiate a voluntary lead ban. Was it not foreseeable that a move to oppose plastic wads would follow and threaten the viability of steel shot use? Are BASC doing anything at all to counter these threats other than selling the idea that steel shot is a credible and proportionate replacement for lead shot for all inland quarry shooting. 

[rbrowning2]

50 minutes ago, Konor said:

And yet BASC chose to initiate a voluntary lead ban. Was it not foreseeable that a move to oppose plastic wads would follow and threaten the viability of steel shot use? Are BASC doing anything at all to counter these threats other than selling the idea that steel shot is a credible and proportionate replacement for lead shot for all inland quarry shooting. 

I guess it was foreseen and hence the voluntary transition included the use of biodegradable wads. The u.k. is the single biggest market for fibre wads to abandon them in favour of single use plastic would not be good.

 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

I guess it was foreseen and hence the voluntary transition included the use of biodegradable wads. The u.k. is the single biggest market for fibre wads to abandon them in favour of single use plastic would not be good.

 

That the availability of truly biodegradable wads sufficient to prevent barrel wall damage using steel shot has seen slow progress and that the use of lead shot seems not to be being negotiated in low impact scenarios is disappointing. Perhaps that will change but I see little drive to bring that about. In fact I see little evidence of anything but a drive to have shooters  accept that lead is dead. What else would our national organisations have us accept while insisting that they are actually opposing any future lead shot restrictions. 

[Terry2016]

22 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

There's plenty of us, myself included, that dislike plastic wads with a passion. I even homeload with fibre cup wads to avoid slingling plastic onto the foreshore, but have incurred damage to more than one gun from their use. Rather frustrating if you want my opinion on it and I had hoped that the latest factory biowad offerings would offer a viable alternative to these card cup wads. 

In actuality, none of them perform like a plaswad, they all cost significantly more, and only the card and water soluble wads break down at all. 

Very disappointing, not helped by the fact that BASC continues to advertise the biocompostible wads as a green alternative to plaswads, which they are not. 

How can you prove they are not? i am interested.   the manufacturers state they are 

10 hours ago, Konor said:

And yet BASC chose to initiate a voluntary lead ban. Was it not foreseeable that a move to oppose plastic wads would follow and threaten the viability of steel shot use? Are BASC doing anything at all to counter these threats other than selling the idea that steel shot is a credible and proportionate replacement for lead shot for all inland quarry shooting. 

thats why BASC chose to voluntary (not ban) move away form single use plastic wads as well so that we have steel shot with suitable wads. 

8 hours ago, Konor said:

That the availability of truly biodegradable wads sufficient to prevent barrel wall damage using steel shot has seen slow progress and that the use of lead shot seems not to be being negotiated in low impact scenarios is disappointing. Perhaps that will change but I see little drive to bring that about. In fact I see little evidence of anything but a drive to have shooters  accept that lead is dead. What else would our national organisations have us accept while insisting that they are actually opposing any future lead shot restrictions. 

Hence the request for a transition over a period of years, rather than a cliff edge stop. 

Lead is going no doubt about it, the only decision needed is what are you going to use instead of lead. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

20 hours ago, Konor said:

Will percentage attendance rates remain in single figures? It seems that miniscule involvement from grass roots shooters has contributed to where we are but that doesn't  absolve BASC from representing those grass roots shooters best interests. Feigning ignorance of the real time biodegradability of these new wads doesn't cut it. 

More tedious prevarication. Will you attend the BASC AGM this coming Saturday? Or will this be the fifth year running since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting supported be nine orgs began, that you will continue to hide behind your keyboard commenting on PW? 

Edited May 15 by Conor O'Gorman

[Smudger687]

45 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

How can you prove they are not? i am interested.   the manufacturers state they are  

For a material to pass EN13432 (iirc) it must break down within 6 weeks of being in an industrial digester, operating at 60 degrees Celsius. These conditions are not found anywhere (or almost anywhere) in the real world, so whenever a manufacturer states that their material passes said regulation it realistically means nothing.

Bioammo's patent literature claims wads and cases made from Polylactic acid (PLA) with an inorganic mineral additive.

We know how PLA degrades - in most environments it doesn't! This is entirely consistent with OP's and others field reports which show that even when buried in the soil for extended periods, the plastic is unchanged. In a marine or foreshore environment, the rate of degradation will be even lower due to the near complete absence of fungi. 

What PLA has been shown to do, however, is break down into microplastics faster than traditional plastics. So ironically these biowads may even end up being more damaging than a normal plaswad. 

To top it off, whenever I and others have requested empirical data from the manufacturers that demonstrates biodegradation under real world conditions, we get ignored. If they had the data, they would give it to us and show it off like eley and gamebore do with their water soluble wads.

Manufacturers have a clear, vested interest in us all believing their biowads are indeed biodegradable. Have you ever stopped to question them, or have you just taken their word for it?

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

More tedious prevarication. Will you attend the BASC AGM this coming Saturday? Or will this be the fifth year running since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting supported be nine orgs began, that you will continue to hide behind your keyboard commenting on PW? 

Conor I am not hiding anywhere I am engaging in a public forum. Again in this thread, as always, you decline to answer any of my questions so I would suggest that you are more guilty of hiding than I am.

As to participating in anything to do with BASC sorry that won't be happening. I have no wish to engage with the organisation which fails to fight my corner and refuses to acknowledge their own incompetence in dealing with the lead fiasco. I have done much to promote shooting at grass roots level I would be of no use however in promoting policies which I believe are to the detriment of shooting. 

As an aside do you even shoot? I have read of one BASC employees Aya yeoman bought in Newton Stewart, and one other ex employee who shot an Aya over and under. I wonder what your own commitment to the shooting sports is. With your affection for steel shot I would guess it's not a British sidelock. 

I would say the handful, as you call anyone disagreeing with your nonsense, is representative of greater numbers than you would have us believe hence your low level of support. 

You have convinced Terry2016 that lead is going apparently but then your position is supposedly the opposition of any further restrictions on lead so even he can't be classed as a supporter of your position. 

1 hour ago, Terry2016 said:

Lead is going no doubt about it, the only decision needed is what are you going to use instead of lead. 

I have 2 hp proof steel Shotguns a miroku multichoke mk38 and Beretta Xtrema  and can well afford to use Bismuth. The only real question is whether any evidence actually exists to show that the use of lead shot inland is sufficiently detrimental to wildlife and the environment to justify a lead ban.Conor O'Gorman has been unable to come up with any figures to prove any detriment his main aim is the protection of commercial shooting. Despite his emotional partridge chick pleas he is more concerned with the large bag commercial shoots that see hundreds of thousands of grown up chicks bagged every year. His main reply is personal attack if it wasn't for that he'd have nothing to say. He's not great at justification or arguing his stance, reading through this and other threads will make clear that he expects, no insists, you accept his position with absolutely no evidence to back his claims. 

Edited May 15 by Konor
Addition

[Konor]

Conor I look forward to seeing your plans for the retention of the right to continue shooting with lead shot where the detrimental effect is considered negligible as stated in your May 24th 2022 news release. Perhaps the "handful" will get behind you when that happens but I wouldn't take even that for granted for obvious reasons. 

[Konor]

28 minutes ago, Konor said:

 

So Terry 2016 you don't agree with BASC's proposal to fight any further restrictions on the use of lead shot inland.

Perhaps you could give me the basis for your reasoning and as I'm guessing that will involve figures to indicate the scale of harm inflicted by the use of lead shot inland could you maybe dm Conor the figures as he has been incapable of justifying the complete restriction of the use of lead shot inland for several threads now. 

Edited May 15 by Konor

[Gordon R]

Quote

thats why BASC chose to voluntary (not ban) move away form single use plastic wads as well so that we have steel shot with suitable wads. 

It begs the question as to why BASC didn't check that manufacturers had a genuinely biodegradable wad before rashly announcing a voluntary lead ban, without consulting its membership or even manufacturers. It was an ill judged move and I have yet to see a reason for the announcement which actually makes sense. Perhaps they were too busy talking about Caribbean weather or wellies.

[Smudger687]

9 hours ago, Gordon R said:

It begs the question as to why BASC didn't check that manufacturers had a genuinely biodegradable wad before rashly announcing a voluntary lead ban, without consulting its membership or even manufacturers. It was an ill judged move and I have yet to see a reason for the announcement which actually makes sense. Perhaps they were too busy talking about Caribbean weather or wellies.

1. A deficiency in healthy scepticism, scientific and mathematical literacy (also demonstrated by repeated publicly stated falsehoods on steel shot performance).

2. A lack of consultation with the manufacturers. BASC consulted with Eley and then assumed that Eley would inform the other UK manufacturers. Eley in fact kept quiet about the whole thing and steamed ahead with their own biowad. This is why Eley were able to get their biowad to market much sooner than the other manufacturers and why the other manufacturers publicly stated they weren't consulted.

3. BASC's near-complete devotion to the big commercial shoots meant that they had to get lead off the table completely as soon as possible and they were grasping for even the hint of a viable solution.

Edited May 16 by Smudger687

[Konor]

17 hours ago, Gordon R said:

rashly announcing a voluntary lead ban, without consulting its membership or even manufacturers.

A case of the tail wagging the dog and a demonstration of the arrogance that considers attacking the messengers instead of confronting the issues raised is appropriate behaviour. I notice the opposition is even greater on Stalking Directory but then I guess that will be put down to multiple account holders. The problem isn’t BASC it is individuals within BASC responsible for the muddled thinking that has them promoting a voluntary lead ban not as a stop gap measure but while stating a commitment to fight any further restrictions/ legislative ban on the continued use of lead shot. I’m reading a lot about the former but nothing about the latter.

So Conor what are the plans to successfully fight any further restrictions on the use of lead shot, what campaigns have you planned to support that policy.

Edited May 16 by Konor

[Gordon R]

Quote

So Conor what are the plans to successfully fight any further restrictions on the use of lead shot, what campaigns have you planned to support that policy.

Conor O'Gorman, I too would be interested in what is planned. This isn't about opinion, a dodgy link or an amateur podcast, it's a straightforward question.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

So Conor what are the plans to successfully fight any further restrictions on the use of lead shot, what campaigns have you planned to support that policy.

BASC has been submitting evidence to the HSE since the lead ammunition review began; and encouraging people to submit their own evidence. There have been 3 rounds - a call for evidence and two consultations on restriction proposals.

Having completed its analysis to its 2022 consultation, the HSE announced it had dropped its original proposals to ban lead airgun pellets for lack of conclusive evidence. It also conceded that target shooting with lead rifle ammunition should be allowed to continue at approved ranges. 

Click the link below to read the main response by BASC to the 2023 HSE consultation which includes BASC's position and arguments against each proposal.

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

The HSE is now working towards September 2024 to formulate its final opinion on its restriction proposals. In an update last month the HSE said “this extension will enable HSE to process, analyse and where appropriate take account of the information received in the final restriction proposals”. 

It is good that the HSE is dedicating the necessary staff resource and time to properly go through the 8,159 responses to the 2023 consultation, many of which were well thought out and evidenced arguments against the remaining restriction proposals. 

The HSE report with recommendations is expected to be submitted to government and published this autumn. Then its for the government to decide whether to act on the report recommendations with legislative proposals. The first round of battle would be lobbying for revisions to any proposals where there were concerns that they were unevidenced and would damage shooting. If such lobbying was needed hopefully we would see more people getting involved than we saw during the HSE consultations.

[Fargo]

All the “degradable” wads and cases are a con except the gamebore and Eley wads.

 

[Smudger687]

8 minutes ago, Fargo said:

All the “degradable” wads and cases are a con except the gamebore and Eley wads.

 

Those are a con as well - a friend of mine cut a cartridge open after a couple of years of being stored in good conditions and the wad had started degrading. They also foul the barrel extremely badly, to the point I'd be concerned about barrel obstruction occurring. 

Edited May 16 by Smudger687

[Konor]

37 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has been submitting evidence to the HSE since the lead ammunition review began; and encouraging people to submit their own evidence. There have been 3 rounds - a call for evidence and two consultations on restriction proposals.

Having completed its analysis to its 2022 consultation, the HSE announced it had dropped its original proposals to ban lead airgun pellets for lack of conclusive evidence. It also conceded that target shooting with lead rifle ammunition should be allowed to continue at approved ranges. 

Click the link below to read the main response by BASC to the 2023 HSE consultation which includes BASC's position and arguments against each proposal.

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

The HSE is now working towards September 2024 to formulate its final opinion on its restriction proposals. In an update last month the HSE said “this extension will enable HSE to process, analyse and where appropriate take account of the information received in the final restriction proposals”. 

It is good that the HSE is dedicating the necessary staff resource and time to properly go through the 8,159 responses to the 2023 consultation, many of which were well thought out and evidenced arguments against the remaining restriction proposals. 

The HSE report with recommendations is expected to be submitted to government and published this autumn. Then its for the government to decide whether to act on the report recommendations with legislative proposals. The first round of battle would be lobbying for revisions to any proposals where there were concerns that they were unevidenced and would damage shooting. If such lobbying was needed hopefully we would see more people getting involved than we saw during the HSE consultations.

Acknowledged. 

If all those predicting that" lead shot is going no doubt about it" just stopped doing the antis work for them (unless they can show the scientific basis to substantiate the extent of any environmental damage) then perhaps a proportionate reaction could be worked out that would resolve any real issues of lead shot damage to the environment without sacrificing so much for negligible benefit. My efforts to protect the use of lead shot where negligible damage is probable are not restricted to taking you and your organisation to task for perceived shortcomings. I feel doing so is necessary as left to your own devices I don't think you are as capable in defending shooters rights as you probably believe. Your minefields of lead for example was a spectacular own goal we don't need any more of that if there is to be a political fight against any further lead shot restrictions. I think it's imperative that we learn from past mistakes, talking of which making an issue of posters identities is a non issue and no replacement for confronting the issues raised. 

[rbrowning2]

For commercial game shooting to have any future lead shot has to go, we are what four years into the five year voluntary transition and it is just not acheiving the goal. It is obvious all the time lead is avaible it will continue to be used, BASC know that and so do we.

https://wildjustice.org.uk/lead-ammunition/game-meat-with-high-lead-levels-still-being-sold/

We will be sold, keeping lead for airguns and rifle target shooting as a victory but lead shot will go, probably a three year transition period after if becomes law. The times scales hurdles however are general election and shortage of components all the time the Ukraine war continues and capacity to manufacture steel shot in China a country Putin is in bed with if todays news is anything to go by.

Edited May 16 by rbrowning2

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

For commercial game shooting to have any future lead shot has to go, we are what four years into the five year voluntary transition and it is just not acheiving the goal. It is obvious all the time lead is avaible it will continue to be used, BASC know that and so do we.

Why dont the big commercial shoots just ban lead shot then ?
Quite simple really, the high costs involved in being actually allowed to shoot on them means that the shooters dont want to be restricted on what they want to shoot WITH.
The big bag shoots and high end estates make their money on entrance to the shoot, not on game meat, and would be worried about a drop in numbers, so they simply dont do it.
Plus if steel was just as good, and worked in all guns, there wouldnt be a problem, but that isnt really true is it ?
Thats why they want to continue using lead.

 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

We will be sold, keeping lead for airguns and rifle target shooting as a victory but lead shot will go, probably a three year transition period after if becomes law. The times scales hurdles however are general election and shortage of components all the time the Ukraine war continues and capacity to manufacture steel shot in China a country Putin is in bed with if todays news is anything to go by.

So clay shooters will have to use steel too ?
Despite the increased cost, ricochet risk, and possible gun incompatibility/damage ?

Even BASC has claimed that to continue using lead at clay grounds, the ground must have 'measures' in place to remove the lead shot ! Knowing full well the impossibility of this.

On the question of components ect, thats just a cop out, how is shot shell production affected by the Ukraine war ?
Also how has China cornered the market in steel shot ?
If we are going to be FORCED to use steel, surely cartridge manufacturers can source elsewhere, or make the shot themselves ? How hard is it to make steel shot !?
The arguments make no sense, and the reason for restrictions in the first place, make no sense.

We have to understand, that all this isnt about a few 'poisoned' birds, or 'healthier' game meat, its politically driven, and is detrimental to EVERYONE who shoots.

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Why dont the big commercial shoots just ban lead shot then ?
Quite simple really, the high costs involved in being actually allowed to shoot on them means that the shooters dont want to be restricted on what they want to shoot WITH.
The big bag shoots and high end estates make their money on entrance to the shoot, not on game meat, and would be worried about a drop in numbers, so they simply dont do it.
Plus if steel was just as good, and worked in all guns, there wouldnt be a problem, but that isnt really true is it ?
Thats why they want to continue using lead.

 

So clay shooters will have to use steel too ?
Despite the increased cost, ricochet risk, and possible gun incompatibility/damage ?

Even BASC has claimed that to continue using lead at clay grounds, the ground must have 'measures' in place to remove the lead shot ! Knowing full well the impossibility of this.

On the question of components ect, thats just a cop out, how is shot shell production affected by the Ukraine war ?
Also how has China cornered the market in steel shot ?
If we are going to be FORCED to use steel, surely cartridge manufacturers can source elsewhere, or make the shot themselves ? How hard is it to make steel shot !?
The arguments make no sense, and the reason for restrictions in the first place, make no sense.

We have to understand, that all this isnt about a few 'poisoned' birds, or 'healthier' game meat, its politically driven, and is detrimental to EVERYONE who shoots.

Don’t get me wrong I am totally against a total ban on lead shot.

“On the question of components ect, thats just a cop out, how is shot shell production affected by the Ukraine war ?”

Try to catch up, There is a global shortage of nitrocellulose, because it is all going into propellant and gun cotton for the war.
Only a few days ago Alliant announced it was suspending all sales of powder. The cartridge/ammunition manufactures are struggling to get what they need for recreational shooting. Try buying reloading components for rifle or shotguns. One supplier I used for shotgun components trying to buy primers or primed cases has been told by a big manufacturer, none for the foreseeable future. Powder like Maxam gone, whats is advertised but probably not available is £120 plus a kg.

China has not cornered the market for steel shot, it is just where it looks to be made Steve Dales Clay and Game once owned a steel shot manufacturer in China, it takes apparently a few hours to make a tonne of lead shot but several days to make a tonne of steel shot. What steel industry do we have left in the U.K.?

The HSE has concluded there is no increased risk of ricochet from steel shot for clay shooting. 

 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Try to catch up, There is a global shortage of nitrocellulose, because it is all going into propellant and gun cotton for the war.

This is a deceptive argument, there is a higher DEMAND for nitrocellulose, which has ramped prices up, the industrial capacity and raw materials are readily available.

https://babel.ua/en/news/105473-despite-the-sanctions-russia-has-doubled-its-imports-of-nitrocellulose-which-is-used-in-the-production-of-artillery-shells

Note China supplying much of it to Russia , also NATO member Turkey cashing in.

18 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Only a few days ago Alliant announced it was suspending all sales of powder.

Likely because of a fat military contract.

 

18 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Try buying reloading components for rifle or shotguns. One supplier I used for shotgun components trying to buy primers or primed cases has been told by a big manufacturer, none for the foreseeable future. Powder like Maxam gone, whats is advertised but probably not available is £120 plus a kg.

Im having no problem sourcing components for my reloading, there was a problem previously , but that was before the war in Ukraine started.

 

21 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The cartridge/ammunition manufactures are struggling to get what they need for recreational shooting.

No shortage of bullets or shells in my area, and no one has told me that they are running low on ammo.

 

22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

What steel industry do we have left in the U.K.?

Broadly agree, but if there is demand, you either out source , or create the product yourself.
Otherwise not only do you lose the market, you lose the potential profit.

 

24 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The HSE has concluded there is no increased risk of ricochet from steel shot for clay shooting. 

Id love to hear how they 'concluded' that.