THE RESULTS !!!

[PeterHenry]

6 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm not sure what your obsession with common law is. Even if it is undemocratic (and I think it is), what part of common law do you think the average person doesn't agree with? Should Rape or Murder be legalised? The comparison doesn't stand up. 

The Lords is open to abuse, is undemocratic, is archaic, wasteful of tax payer money and should be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. 

I'm trying to draw an analogy for you - that Common Law is every bit as archaic and undemocratic when viewed on its own as the House of Lords. But that it works in, and has valuable contributions to make in a democratic system.

If you wanted a democratic source of law, common law could be replaced with statute law - I know you keep bringing up the examples of murder and rape - but rape hasn't been a common law offence for some time now.

And - genuinely - not to be rude, but from some of your more recent comments, I'm not entirely sure you have anything but the faintest grasp of what common law is.

I think at this point, we are not going to convince each other with our views on the need (or not) for constitutional reform.

Hats off to you for a spirited discussion.

Best,

Peter

 

Edited July 12 by PeterHenry

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

I'm trying to draw an analogy for you - that Common Law is every bit as archaic and undemocratic when viewed on its own as the House of Lords. But that it works in, and has valuable contributions to make in a democratic system.

If you wanted a democratic source of law, common law could be replaced with statute law - I know you keep bringing up the examples of murder and rape - but rape hasn't been a common law offence for some time now.

And - genuinely - not to be rude, but from some of your more recent comments, I'm not entirely sure you have anything but the faintest grasp of what common law is.

I think at this point, we are not going to convince each other with our views on the need (or not) for constitutional reform.

Hats off to you for a spirited discussion.

Best,

Peter

 

Your trying to build a straw man argument and in my opinion it's a bad one. Im not sure you understand what democracy is.

My understanding of common law (and I'm obviously no expert) is that to a degree common law is democratic. Common law is developed through decisions that were made by judges in the courts, and these decisions are influenced by democratic principles such as the rule of law, individual rights, and equality. Additionally, the UK legal system allows for the involvement of the public through processes such as jury trials and appeals, law as a whole has also changed over the years as public opinion shifts, showing that the rule of law as a whole is linked to a democratic process. 

The House of Lords in the UK is not a democratic institution. It is an unelected chamber of Parliament made up of appointed members, hereditary peers, and senior clergymen. While I accept some members of the House of Lords are appointed based on their expertise and experience, the presence of hereditary peers and bishops clearly raises questions about the democratic legitimacy of the chamber.

 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

My understanding of common law (and I'm obviously no expert) is that to a degree common law is democratic.

Unfortunately English common law comes from a time when democracy didnt actually exist here.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/common-law

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Unfortunately English common law comes from a time when democracy didnt actually exist here.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/common-law

Yep I'm well aware, however as statute law and case law has taken over bits over the years and the fact the court system is democratic to an extent via jury trial ect. The bits of common law that remain are clearly popular by the people. 

The Lords on the other hand is undemocratic for the reasons I've already mentioned. Plus what common law has in particular to do with the Lords I fail to see the specific connection. 

[oowee]

27 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yep I'm well aware, however as statute law and case law has taken over bits over the years and the fact the court system is democratic to an extent via jury trial ect. The bits of common law that remain are clearly popular by the people. 

The Lords on the other hand is undemocratic for the reasons I've already mentioned. Plus what common law has in particular to do with the Lords I fail to see the specific connection. 

Neither do i. Analogy or not. The Lords promotes fear and favour and perpetuates the 'old school'. If Starmer can chop some then all power to him. You don't eat an elephant in one bite. 

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Neither do i. Analogy or not. The Lords promotes fear and favour and perpetuates the 'old school'. If Starmer can chop some then all power to him. You don't eat an elephant in one bite. 

👍

[Pushandpull]

You can trace law in this country back to pre-Norman times (the witanagemot) if you wish. It's interesting.

However, in the country today the legislature (Government under the Crown) makes the laws, and the executive (Parliament etc.) brings them into effect - this is the statute law. The judiciary interprets the statute law in detail - this is case law which is a more appropriate title today than common law.

[udderlyoffroad]

58 minutes ago, oowee said:

If Starmer can chop some then all power to him. You don't eat an elephant in one bite. 

First act of every PM since Blair is to immediately appoint a load of sympathetic lords.

To torture this analogy; he’s eaten 3 bites of the elephant but brought 2 back up.

He needs to at least signal his intention to take a few more bites

Edited July 12 by udderlyoffroad

[oowee]

19 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

First act of every PM since Blair is to immediately appoint a load of sympathetic lords.

To torture this analogy; he’s eaten 3 bites of the elephant but brought 2 back up.

He needs to at least signal his intention to take a few more bites

A good start then. Far more than the last 6 have done. 

[udderlyoffroad]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

A good start then. Far more than the last 6 have done. 

Agreed, but I’m suggesting he needs to go further & not take the easy option.

I understand he can’t try and do it all at once, without consultation aka doing a Truss, but he should show leadership on this one.

[oowee]

On 11/07/2024 at 12:59, udderlyoffroad said:

So let's review after a week in power

1) £3bn/year to that murderous scumbag Zelenski & authorising UK missiles in Russia.  This will end badly.

2) Cancelling north sea drilling, onshore windmills back on - Electricity going to sky rocket again...

3) Concreting over the green belt 

4) Offenders released even earlier

What a dumpster fire already. 

£3bn is not enough. It will end badly if Putin continues the war.

Renewable energy is often the cheapest form of generation now. Onshore is considerably cheaper than off shore so prices should come down further. Lets wean ourselves off dependencies.

Green belt policy has in many places accelerated the loss of previously undeveloped land. Most will want to see housing available at affordable prices for our children. What we need to ensure is that the standards of build are maintained. 

Offenders released early follows on from the 10000 already released by the Tories over the last year and the lack of prison building. The Tories have left much of the systems and services of this country on life support. It will take a long time to turn around the decline that we are currently facing. It looks like there is no option to the releases, lets hope that some mitigation through the probation services (also decimated) can be put in place.

Unless the prison and probation services are working we cannot expect improvements in law and order. Currently investment in legal services (also decimated) to speed up processing of offenders will simply further over burden the prison service. 

[Raja Clavata]

Well said Oowee.

A number of law firms also appear to be reigning in the size of their legal aid departments and in at least one case shutting it down entirely. That’ll have a knock on effect too.

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

£3bn is not enough. It will end badly if Putin continues the war.

If we keep pumping money into Ukraine , its us continuing the war.
We could match the Americans contribution dollar for dollar, cripple our economy, and it still wouldnt end the war, so your argument for more money holds no water.
I see Starmer has had his first major embarrassing U turn on using British supplied weapons on Russian soil.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/12/feckless-britain-has-handed-putin-an-undeserved-victory/

Expect further U turns from the grey man.

13 hours ago, oowee said:

Offenders released early follows on from the 10000 already released by the Tories over the last year and the lack of prison building. The Tories have left much of the systems and services of this country on life support. It will take a long time to turn around the decline that we are currently facing. It looks like there is no option to the releases, lets hope that some mitigation through the probation services (also decimated) can be put in place.

So labour are going to build more prisons ? No I thought not.
Rather than keep the deterrent of prison, theyve just removed it completely, the public will suffer the consequences of these policies.

 

6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

A number of law firms also appear to be reigning in the size of their legal aid departments and in at least one case shutting it down entirely. That’ll have a knock on effect too.

Maybe theyre too busy dealing with immigration cases that pay more ?
The knock on effect is that we must keep people in detention longer while we deal with the backlog of crimes, Oh no we cant do that the prisons are full, so just err, let them go.....
The other knock on effect is that the deterrent of the law dealing with you , and the promise of no jail time, leads to more crime.
Rinse and repeat.

[Yellow Bear]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I see Starmer has had his first major embarrassing U turn

As someone has already stated "more U turns than a Boomerang" and "more flips than a burger chef" 

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The knock on effect is that we must keep people in detention longer while we deal with the backlog of crimes, Oh no we cant do that the prisons are full, so just err, let them go.....
The other knock on effect is that the deterrent of the law dealing with you , and the promise of no jail time, leads to more crime.
Rinse and repeat.

Get your point on the funding but I was of the opinion this was a proxy war with the West from the start. It’s just more obvious now. I’d like to think if we were in the same boat as Ukraine then we’d be minded just the way they are. 

Again, with you on the prison and detention issue but this relates back to my point about using illegal immigration as a distraction for a lot of other serious issues, like this one.

Interesting times ahead. 

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It’s just more obvious now.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

If we keep pumping money into Ukraine , its us continuing the war.
We could match the Americans contribution dollar for dollar, cripple our economy, and it still wouldnt end the war, so your argument for more money holds no water.
I see Starmer has had his first major embarrassing U turn on using British supplied weapons on Russian soil.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/12/feckless-britain-has-handed-putin-an-undeserved-victory/

Expect further U turns from the grey man.

So labour are going to build more prisons ? No I thought not.
Rather than keep the deterrent of prison, theyve just removed it completely, the public will suffer the consequences of these policies.

As long as Putin continues the war we have choice but to defend ourselves. Partnering with the Taliban, killing people in Europe we are at war. There can be no peace, there is no option for the appeaser. War is expensive we did not ask for it. 

The Tories had the budget for prisons but could not spend it. They sat on the problem and let it fester. They further compounded the issue by increasing the backlog through the courts, increasing re offending rates and simply drifting into letting offenders onto the streets.  If labour did absolutely nothing and just let prisoners go they would be no worse. Whatever they do they will make a difference its hard to see how it could be worse. 

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, oowee said:

As long as Putin continues the war we have choice but to defend ourselves. Partnering with the Taliban, killing people in Europe we are at war. There can be no peace, there is no option for the appeaser. War is expensive we did not ask for it. 

Youre letting your inner warmonger out 
I thought it was Ukraines war, and were just selling them weapons ?
Just be careful for what you wish for, from proxy to hot war is never a long stretch, and from there, just a button press till those nukes start flying.
Is Ukraine worth that ?

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Youre letting your inner warmonger out 
I thought it was Ukraines war, and were just selling them weapons ?
Just be careful for what you wish for, from proxy to hot war is never a long stretch, and from there, just a button press till those nukes start flying.
Is Ukraine worth that ?

NATO now giving much more attention to China. China having war games on the Ukraine border. There is a systemic threat against the West. 

I don't wish for it far from it. With China and Russia attacking the West every day we have a choice put up or shut up. I have long said we should close China down. We just need to start turning off the tap. 

 

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

NATO now giving much more attention to China.

Awesome, a 2 front war with two nuclear armed superpowers, what could go wrong?

 

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

I have long said we should close China down.

Those days are gone, the opportunity missed.

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Those days are gone, the opportunity missed.

 

I doubt it. All as it takes is a little time and more importantly team work (we just need to find one to join). 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

As long as Putin continues the war we have choice but to defend ourselves. Partnering with the Taliban, killing people in Europe we are at war. There can be no peace, there is no option for the appeaser. War is expensive we did not ask for it. 

 

I totally agree, there's only one side that chose to invade the other. Would we decide to give up if part of the UK had been occupied. When this first kicked off, I felt Nato should have formed a line with a buffer zone and made it very clear to Putin he could move no further, a lot of people laughed at me at the time and maybe still would, but I still believe it would have been the best thing to do. 

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I totally agree, there's only one side that chose to invade the other. Would we decide to give up if part of the UK had been occupied. When this first kicked off, I felt Nato should have formed a line with a buffer zone and made it very clear to Putin he could move no further, a lot of people laughed at me at the time and maybe still would, but I still believe it would have been the best thing to do. 

In hind sight I think you were right. We have to stand up to bullies. It's not easy as we debate all the what ifs and have a lot to loose. It's pretty clear that Russia is running out of armour and men, the economy is in free fall. Why then are we still drip feeding Ukraine? Anyway don't want to derail the thread. 🤣

[oowee]

Not messing about.

Keir Starmer’s new Labour government today unveils plans for a “rooftop revolution” that will see millions more homes fitted with solar panels in order to bring down domestic energy bills and tackle the climate crisis.

The energy secretary, Ed Miliband, also took the hugely controversial decision this weekend to approve three massive solar farms in the east of England that had been blocked by Tory ministers.

The three sites alone – Gate Burton in Lincolnshire, Sunnica’s energy farm on the Suffolk-Cambridgeshire border and Mallard Pass on the border between Lincolnshire and Rutland – will deliver about two-thirds of the solar energy installed on rooftops and on the ground in the whole of last year.

[Stonepark]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

In hind sight I think you were right. We have to stand up to bullies such as NATO. It's not easy as we debate all the what ifs and have a lot to loose. It's pretty clear that Ukraine is running out of armour and men, the economy is in free fall. And despite the F16's arrinving shortly, have lost over 14,000 men this week alone.

Fixed it!

Edited July 13 by Stonepark