Advice about antique E & G Higham shotgun

[bobloblaw]

Hi,

Apologies in advance if this is the wrong place to post this.

Recently assisting a friend with clearing his parents' house, we came across this old shotgun in the back of an old cupboard.  He lives in France and obviously didn't want to take it back with him through customs so I said I'd deal with it.

Although the maker's mark on the barrel is very faint, I was able to figure out that it says E & G Higham Liverpool.  I believe it was probably made in the latter half of the 1800's.

I don't have a licence myself so my plan was to just surrender it at the local police station with an explanation but it's such a nice old thing it seems like such a shame for it to go off for destruction.

I've read and tried to understand the rules about keeping it as an antique shotgun for display and while I can see that age-wise it would qualify, I'm not sure the other points regarding it's ammunition.

Alternatively, can I simply pass this on to my brother who does have a shotgun licence?

Any advice about passing it on or keeping it as a display antique would be much appreciated.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Welcome to Pigeon Watch.

[Old Boggy]

Yes, welcome to pigeon watch.

[enfieldspares]

Hello. As it is a conventional centrefire in 16 bore (for standard 2 1/2" cartridges) it will be s2. That isn't a problem. If in 14 bore it would be s58 and obsolete calibre. Local police will understand that often when sorting out "deceased chattels" that these things come up.

But as it is a 16 bore and so s2 there are three options.

Call police and ask them to collect if you intend that the gun is of no interest and your are OK with it being destroyed (after all if that is the case why waste your time going to them but let them come to you).

Or ask local police for a "section 7" permit if you want to keep it to either sell or have deactivated. A "section 7" permit is free and doesn't permit use but allows you, or yyhe friend if in their name, to have lawful possession to enable it to be sold or otherwise dealt with.

Last contact a local RFD or auctioneer with an RFD and ask them to sell it for you or have it deactivated lawfully certified as so.

Or a fourth option the brother option is, yes, someone with an SGC can ask the police if they can take possession of it. 

A "test" to see if it is of any real use is this.

Hang the barrels from your left hand forefinger by the front of the hooked metal at the part of the barrel where the 17/1 is stamped. Using the knuckle of your right forefinger tap the barrels. Both sides and up and down their length. If they ring true like a tubular bell they are possibly still with life in them. If they make a dull or "jarring" or "spring like" sound they are scrap BUT STILL IN ANY CASE NEED A LICENCE.

But at least you now if they have any desirability to a possible lawful future owner. If they don't ring then my advice is surrender for destruction rather than the rigamarole of section 7 as they have no desirability save possibly as deactivated to the friend as a sentimental momento of the parents.

Edited August 22 by enfieldspares

[bobloblaw]

Many thanks for taking the time to provide that comprehensive reply - much appreciated.

Based on your suggested test, I think the barrels probably are scrap so it really has no value to my brother and if it can't be kept as an antique to hang on the wall it's no use to me either and I don't think there's any sentimental value to my friend.

I'll contact the police and ask them to collect it for scrap (along with the very old Hopkins and Allen revolver that we also found in a box!)

Thanks again.

[PeterHenry]

Depending on what calibre the pistol is, you might be able to keep it without a licence - no need to hand in something like a pinfire pistol or other obsolete calibre.

Edited August 22 by PeterHenry

[ditchman]

23 minutes ago, bobloblaw said:

Many thanks for taking the time to provide that comprehensive reply - much appreciated.

Based on your suggested test, I think the barrels probably are scrap so it really has no value to my brother and if it can't be kept as an antique to hang on the wall it's no use to me either and I don't think there's any sentimental value to my friend.

I'll contact the police and ask them to collect it for scrap (along with the very old Hopkins and Allen revolver that we also found in a box!)

Thanks again.

what calibre is the revolver .........?...is it cased or on its own...

[bobloblaw]

The gun is just on its own, no case/box.  Seems in okay condition but needs cleaning/oiling

I'm not actually sure of the calibre, but measuring the rear of the chamber is 5.1mm or 0.2"

From a bit of Googling, I think it dates from about 1906.   Apart from the maker's stamp on the barrel, I can't see any other markings:-

HOPKINS & ALLEN MFG
NORWICH. CT.

Would be great if I can keep it as an antique assuming the calibre is obsolete.

 

Ah, no there are other markings on the back of the chamber part, 3 1 9 - serial no. perhaps?

Edited August 22 by bobloblaw

[Old Boggy]

For the hammer gun, how about saving just the locks and mounting them as a show piece or as has been suggested on here previously casting them in resin. They would make super paperweights.

It would also be interesting to see if there`s a name on the inside of the locks.

OB

[bobloblaw]

Excuse my ignorance, but which parts are the 'locks'?  Presuming it took 0.22" rimfire bullets, are these classed as obsolete?   Or is this one for the scrapper as well?

Ah I see now, sorry, you were referring to the shotgun!

Edited August 22 by bobloblaw

[bobloblaw]

Hmmm, unless I'm mistaken from my Googling I think .22" rimfire aren't classed as obsolete so I'd better turn this one in to the police at the same time.

[Old Boggy]

1 hour ago, bobloblaw said:

Excuse my ignorance, but which parts are the 'locks'?  Presuming it took 0.22" rimfire bullets, are these classed as obsolete?   Or is this one for the scrapper as well?

Ah I see now, sorry, you were referring to the shotgun!

Yes both locks on the hammer gun could be easily removed. They are the bits holding the hammers. They make good items on their own.

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, bobloblaw said:

Hmmm, unless I'm mistaken from my Googling I think .22" rimfire aren't classed as obsolete so I'd better turn this one in to the police at the same time.

Yes. I am guessing from your measurements that it is such and so "section 5" and therefore needs to be so surrendered.

[bobloblaw]

Many thanks for all the feedback guys - all very useful ta.

[Fil]

21 hours ago, bobloblaw said:

The gun is just on its own, no case/box.  Seems in okay condition but needs cleaning/oiling

I'm not actually sure of the calibre, but measuring the rear of the chamber is 5.1mm or 0.2"

From a bit of Googling, I think it dates from about 1906.   Apart from the maker's stamp on the barrel, I can't see any other markings:-

HOPKINS & ALLEN MFG
NORWICH. CT.

Would be great if I can keep it as an antique assuming the calibre is obsolete.

 

Ah, no there are other markings on the back of the chamber part, 3 1 9 - serial no. perhaps?

That is either a .22 rim fire and is very much Sec5. or an old Derringer calibre which would be off ticket. If the top of the hammer has a "blade on it then it is a rim fire calibre. If it has a point looking like a striker down a bit from the top then it is a centre fire. I would get someone who can physically view this and knows what they are looking at.

Edited August 23 by Fil
added info

[Westley]

These are the 'locks', cleaned up and mounted.

[bobloblaw]

Ah I see - yep, thanks - something like that would look good actually.

How does it stand with the Police in terms of keeping some parts of the gun?  Presumably they're most interested in the breech and barrels over other parts?

[bobloblaw]

2 hours ago, Fil said:

That is either a .22 rim fire and is very much Sec5. or an old Derringer calibre which would be off ticket. If the top of the hammer has a "blade on it then it is a rim fire calibre. If it has a point looking like a striker down a bit from the top then it is a centre fire. I would get someone who can physically view this and knows what they are looking at.

Thanks, yep I'm pretty sure it's a .22 rim fire and tallies with what they were producing back in the late 1800's (I think).  I've contacted the local Police station to see what they want to do but I'll plan to pull off the hammers and locks off the shotgun to polish up and mount.

[enfieldspares]

41 minutes ago, bobloblaw said:

Ah I see - yep, thanks - something like that would look good actually.

How does it stand with the Police in terms of keeping some parts of the gun?  Presumably they're most interested in the breech and barrels over other parts?

Nowadays the fear is that you may keep parts that can be used to reactivate similar deactivated revolvers. In truth the barrel, cylinder and frame have actually been the easiest parts to make. Crude and nasty made yes. But still makeable. For at basic you can use a drill and a hand file and a milling machine. It is the fiddly bits such as springs and triggers and the hammer that are a nuisance to make as they are small and which as the new rules require that they be removed could, supposedly be used to reactivate a deactivated weapon albeit it'd needs a lot of imagination to think so!

Further as the thing is to be destroyed you could use a blow torch to melt the solder and remove the top rib then cut out the E Higham Liverpool section and mount that under the two salvaged locks and hammers? It doesn't take much heat to lift a rib. There are videos on You Tube. A wallpaper scraper with a wood handle makes a good "pry".

[bobloblaw]

If the rib is the long patterned piece that goes the full length of the barrel, it's already fully loose anyhow.  The name stamp is so faint now though, I'm not sure it'll be worth keeping.

I guess I'll have to see what the Police say to me removing the locks and hammers from the shotgun.

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, bobloblaw said:

If the rib is the long patterned piece that goes the full length of the barrel, it's already fully loose anyhow.  The name stamp is so faint now though, I'm not sure it'll be worth keeping.

I guess I'll have to see what the Police say to me removing the locks and hammers from the shotgun.

You are correct re the rib.

The law is that the pressure bearing parts require a licence - so the locks on a hammer gun or side lock / rib on its own don't require licencing.

I have one of the locks from my great grandfather's gun on my desk - as has been said, they are quite nice things in their own right.

The attached is quite a helpful document - para 12.73 is where the relevant bit starts.

Firearms_guide_November_2022.pdf

Edited August 23 by PeterHenry

[Smokersmith]

Another E.G. Higham ..

[Old Boggy]

17 hours ago, Westley said:

These are the 'locks', cleaned up and mounted.

Very nice.

I also like Enfieldspares idea of mounting part of the rib with the name on below the locks.

I’m now on the lookout for a pair of hammer gun locks.

OB

[Westley]

5 hours ago, Old Boggy said:

Very nice.

I also like Enfieldspares idea of mounting part of the rib with the name on below the locks.

I’m now on the lookout for a pair of hammer gun locks.

OB

Thank you, the makers name is on the outside of the lock.  I would ring around a few gunsmiths, someone is bound to have a pair of old locks lying around. Take them to an engineering company and get them professionally cleaned, it's worth it.

Edited August 24 by Westley

[Old Boggy]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

Thank you, the makers name is on the outside of the lock.  I would ring around a few gunsmiths, someone is bound to have a pair of old locks lying around. Take them to an engineering company and get them professionally cleaned, it's worth it.

That`s a great idea, thanks