Best coaches ?

[berettaman1]

I had a guy phone me up this morning asking if I would be interested in coaching him and 3 friends, @ sporting @DTL, only because a few weeks ago I had put him right where he was missing, on 3 stands at a local registered shoot. I told him I wished someone could tell me where I miss the clays!! I explained I had not the time, to do so, and told him to look up certified CPSA Coaches and carry on from there,... to my suprise he informed me he done so on the CPSA website and on looking had found even the senior coaches were-In his words **** in all disciplines they profess to coach!!!I replied they than can do!--- and those that cant ! teach!!...... However I looked up the classification of a Head CPSA Coach?? and found out in 14 registered disciplines he is in the following__ 6 disciplines_D class...5 disciplines_C class....3 disciplines B class!!! At this I was totally amazed that people can charge for instuction on how to shoot!!!When they havent mastered the skill themselves..... Now its ok quoting parrot fashion how to shoot this target or that target from their CPSA coaching manual, but there is no question if you want to learn properly, then go to a guy who knows what he is talking about, like Bidwell, Bloxham, and many others who know what they are preaching.

[Catamong]

Some good advice there Ron, but the "unknown" CPSA coaches do have their place, particularly when teaching beginners the basics of gun handling, safety and the concept of understanding how much lead to give the clay.

 

If you're serious about progressing to become a Champion, then visit the likes of Bloxham, Bidwell, Thorrold, Reynolds, Faulds etc, as they know what it takes to win competitions.

 

Cat.

[2shots]

I had a guy phone me up this morning asking if I would be interested in coaching him and 3 friends, @ sporting @DTL, only because a few weeks ago I had put him right where he was missing, on 3 stands at a local registered shoot. I told him I wished someone could tell me where I miss the clays!! I explained I had not the time, to do so, and told him to look up certified CPSA Coaches and carry on from there,... to my suprise he informed me he done so on the CPSA website and on looking had found even the senior coaches were-In his words **** in all disciplines they profess to coach!!!I replied they than can do!--- and those that cant ! teach!!...... However I looked up the classification of a Head CPSA Coach?? and found out in 14 registered disciplines he is in the following__ 6 disciplines_D class...5 disciplines_C class....3 disciplines B class!!! At this I was totally amazed that people can charge for instuction on how to shoot!!!When they havent mastered the skill themselves..... Now its ok quoting parrot fashion how to shoot this target or that target from their CPSA coaching manual, but there is no question if you want to learn properly, then go to a guy who knows what he is talking about, like Bidwell, Bloxham, and many others who know what they are preaching.

 

 

Bought my wife a nice used miroku mk38 and went to try it on 50 DTL 25 PER CARD on the first card I noticed a

bloke peering over her shoulder and giving instructions to her,I could see she was getting aggrivated by him, after the first five clays he grabbed the gun and was showing her how to hold it properly,telling her she would hit more if she does as he says,he had stopped the line completely.Another shooter noticed and told him to wait for the line to end ,he said tell you what pet im shooting the next card with you ILL show you what I mean.By the way 17x25 was her first score with a new gun

I asked if she wanted me to have a word with him before the next card but was told to leave it,anyway we were called for the next card and her new friend came strutting on in a brand new leather jacket with CPSA INSTRUCTOR on the back,He was carrying a gun that had an alloy pipework stock thing that should have been in a hospital,and said come on then, because he wasnt beside my wife he asked the scorer for a swop in positions nobody would so the line started.Amazingly the line was shot with no problems and the call came to unload and check your scores please,My wife walked up to him and asked how did you do A VERY RESPECTABLE 22 HE SAID,Now totally out of character my wife turned and said well Ive got a very respectable 24 so you can keep your !"£$%^&* stupid opinions to yourself and leave peoples guns alone when you dont know or ask them, everybody fell about laughing and he just walked away.You see shes been shooting DTL for years with a browning 30 inch trap thats now too heavy for her and suffers with recoil problems hence the lighter miroku, her normal scores average 20 plus with trophies to prove it. The next card was called and her new friend oh dear hed gone he didnt show, my wife enjoyed his line as well 18x25

[berettaman1]

Yes you are right there Cat, but to advertise /charge exorbinate prices to Teach?? newbie shooters, the basics of gun safety,and how to shoot is a big con in my oppinion, Most seem to wait untill they have a class of 6 to 8 guys at a cost of about £400 pounds, minimum for the class, the information gleaned could be obtained just by going to a few registered shoots and observing/asking guys who know what they are doing!!OK, the CPSA guys can quote word for word the laws, the rules , the best way to shoot a given target,... But They Cant Do It Themselves. the very best advice I have seen, to cover all Disciplines is a book by Paul Bently,..... or a book called "Successful clay pigeon shooting" by Tony Hoare,!

[beretta]

totally agree with the above comments. i have no CPSA coaching skills at all, but since moving and having lots of spare time on my hands. ive been asked by locals to lend a hand with there shooting. some are beginers and some are very good shots to start with but all say it has helped them improve.

like i said ive had no training to be a coach but ive been their done that and got the badge.

[Peter De La Mare]

I've purchased a day with Mr Bloxham in May, I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Stu S]

I've purchased a day with Mr Bloxham in May, I'll let you all know how it goes.

 

 

I had a day with him a few weeks back, and i tell you, he was a fantastic coach. The only thing i had a problem with at the end of the day was the sheer number of cartridges (500) i fired, both for my shoulder and arms, and for my wallet!

 

Great coach though, and a top guy as well. He diagnosed that i have a slight eye dominance issue, which we managed to work through (although it is still a concious effort to manage it, so not shooting as naturally as i would like yet!), but i found him to be very helpful.

 

Really must give him a call soon to organise a follow up couple of hours or half a day, but deffo not a full day again!!!!!!

 

Can't rate him highly enough!

 

Stu

[Catamong]

I've known Carl for many years, a true gent who knows pretty much all there is to know about Sporting Clays.

 

Cat.

[Emmsy]

i should become i CPSA coach, i cant hit a barn door at the moment

 

this coach you on about wouldnt be JPY by any chance?

[Cranfield]

Don't CPSA approved coaches have to pass some sort of an "examination", or reach a CPSA standard, before they are accredited ?

I just assumed that they did.

[Emmsy]

you pays your money and you gets your badge.

i know 3 people who are on that cpsa list of approved coaches, 1 can shoot and teach, the other 2 a corporate day is about there limit. anyone who has issues with there own shooting shouldnt be allowed to coach imo.

its all just another way of the cpsa making more dosh. i looked into doing the couses but you have to do about 3 and it costs you about £1k. and the only bonus i would get is my name on the list. at the rate i coach it would take a good while just to get even again.

[Stu S]

I've known Carl for many years, a true gent who knows pretty much all there is to know about Sporting Clays.

 

Cat.

 

 

He certainly knows his stuff!

 

Stu

[Chard]

I've always been slightly intrigued by that fact that some (quite a few) coaches are only moderately competent shots

 

To be fair, I would like to think that most of them are technically competent enough to hit all target types, but just lack that drive and concentration that it takes to become a top shot. I understand this, as that probably accurately describes my own shooting. I can't think of a target type that beats me, but I can't get big scores, because I only really do it for the craic, and on the occasions where I do try a bit harder, I seem to mess up. I shoot best when I'm just banging about and not keeping score

 

What is a bit worrying are the coaches that do have technical issues with their shooting. I can't see how they can teach someone how to shoot, say, a long and distant crosser, if they can't hit any of them themselves. What do they tell their pupil?

 

I do think that ability should be built into a CPSA Instructors Course. I know that safety, gun mount and stance are crucial, but an instructors customers are looking for more than those things. They want to be told how to shoot the different target types

Edited April 10, 2008 by Chard

[bob300w]

I have to agree with Chard, surely you should have to be an AA class gun before becoming a CPSA coach? Is this just another way for the CPSA to make money? You pay the fee and you are then a coach? Do you need no qualilifications at all? Seems highly suspect to me, and a good reason for the CPSA to re-think their ruling on this subject.

Maybe we should start naming names of those who can't do it themselves, but coach?

[berettaman1]

Ooh Err, I have appeared to have openend a hornets nest, Would I??. I was trying to say that I, in my old age, seemed to know more than some of the CPSA Coaches about some diciplines,.... I wont bore you, the PW members who have withstood my drink fuelled rages when I have boasted, about how I started shooting clays in 1993 at the age of 54, after a massive heart attack, told to sell my house, go round the world, spend my dosh, blar blar....etc, and how 12 months later I found myself in A class sporting,... A class DTL?... AA class in double rise??... winning umpteen County championships and fought for High gun in the west Mids intercounties Double Rise championship against Brett hand!!! alas only won Silver but Gold in vets and my County high gun Gold medal, Plus of course my team medals won in the USA World Clay Sporting events!! and Home county sporting events...Oh bloody hell, I am doing it again!!. Over that time I have never had a lesson, but I know a few who have and they have come back a worse shooter than before they laid out lots of dosh!! I was just trying to say that a lot of CPSA coaches can not do it!! how can a B class coach (sporting) make a pupil better than himself??? How can he teach, what he does not know , himself.. Hhm as you have all guessed, I am slightly tanked up!!!Sorry to bore you Lads but you all know I speak from my heart, Cheers, Ron.

[bob300w]

S'truth, B'man, you've started early today, even for you! I'm still suffering from the after effects of yesterday, so I'm off the pop for a few more hours.

[berettaman1]

****, BOB! you lightweight!!!Look ,...no good coming on here unless you are Tanked UP!!thats the only time I know what I am talking about!!!Ha Ha, you know I am joking!!..

[berettaman1]

Hhhm, I have just had a conversation, ... by PM,... with beretta.!!He is A guy who has done everything in Sporting than anyone could wish!! I knew of him, before I became a member of this forum, that he really is one of the greats in English sporting,!!!Jeeze!! I wish I was as good.....so in reality... I can only wish I had his talent.... the good side? ... after a couple of years,... he can SHOOT FOR WALES...

[beretta]

fraid i cant. (as far as i no)

[tosspot]

Ooh Err, I have appeared to have openend a hornets nest, Would I??. I was trying to say that I, in my old age, seemed to know more than some of the CPSA Coaches about some diciplines,.... I wont bore you, the PW members who have withstood my drink fuelled rages when I have boasted, about how I started shooting clays in 1993 at the age of 54, after a massive heart attack, told to sell my house, go round the world, spend my dosh, blar blar....etc, and how 12 months later I found myself in A class sporting,... A class DTL?... AA class in double rise??... winning umpteen County championships and fought for High gun in the west Mids intercounties Double Rise championship against Brett hand!!! alas only won Silver but Gold in vets and my County high gun Gold medal, Plus of course my team medals won in the USA World Clay Sporting events!! and Home county sporting events...Oh bloody hell, I am doing it again!!. Over that time I have never had a lesson, but I know a few who have and they have come back a worse shooter than before they laid out lots of dosh!! I was just trying to say that a lot of CPSA coaches can not do it!! how can a B class coach (sporting) make a pupil better than himself??? How can he teach, what he does not know , himself.. Hhm as you have all guessed, I am slightly tanked up!!!Sorry to bore you Lads but you all know I speak from my heart, Cheers, Ron.

 

 

Flippen heck Ron 11.44 and only slightly tanked up, you're slipping

 

interesting argument though and one in which you have a very valid point, i think the filthy lucre has a part to play here

 

but

 

even the top sportsmen have coaches, who the hell is going to coach Tiger Woods if only someone better than he is qualified to do so?

 

sometimes someone with average skill can observe bad faults/technique in others even if they cannot rectify it in themselves, not that i'm condoning a poor coaching setup i'm not, just offering a slant on the debate.

 

Nice CV by the way :blush:

 

TP

[berettaman1]

Yes, you ,as usual talk sense TP,.. in all honesty I wish I had not opened this thread. cos the guy at the sharp end, is just trying to make a living. and in the past, showed good common sense when he worked for the CPSA, I remember, only a couple of years ago, when I decided to rejoin after 12 months away, I had been paying for membership in in both the WCTSA, and the CPSA.. I received a Phone call from some guy called Mark, from the CPSA, asking why I had not renewed my membership and would I reconsider rejoining?...Hhm, I reconsidered and said yes OK, but would it start from the new year?? as I knew my shooting mate had put my expired CPSA N0, in on three occasions at registered shoots, even though I was a member of the WCTSA..... no problem said the Berk Mark, so I paid up over the phone, with my card details,..... when my CPSA card arrived I saw it was only for 3 months!! untill it expired!!!!I went ballistic and phoned Wally Mark, who denied he had made such a promise!!...... Hhm I phoned back to the CPSA and spoke to a polite guy, A Scotsman, .. Yes youve got it,Clayman.. who, on listening to my complaint, put it right.....recently I was annoyed with Clayman, who shot down a couple of my replies on the clayshooting forum with technical facts to my comments even though my replies were exactly what I had experienced at Registered shoots.... when it comes to the rules regulations etc, Clayman is the man.but my thoughts re,CPSA coaches, I/E can they do it,? remain the same..

[clayman]

Yes, it would be. My averages come from 1994 - 1998, in the last year I shot every discipline, many for the first time. Became County Champion DR, and was 9th (I Think) in the county list overall, made the county team two yrs running, and became a competent all round shot. For the next ten years I have worked on improving my coaching skills, including attending a Master Degree in Sports Science at South Bank University ( I gained units but did not complete the degree, but it has been very helpful to me), becoming a Senior Coach, employed 5 years at CPSA as training manager where I was the major contributor to the CPSA Tutor Manuals, the Clay Target Shooter's Hand Book, and the Course manuals. I moved from individual coaching to train the trainer, and in my time at the CPSA was responsible for the training of around 500 new instructors, 100 coaches, about 30 tutors, and as many assessors.

 

I can happily shoot 25/25s and 80/1000 ESP, but equally well have bad days. Yes, I'm just an average shot, but what I have a passion for is improving others, and my goal every time is to take my pupil beyond my own shooting ability. Thats the skill of a coach, not necessarily personal high performance.

 

The criteria for entry to instruction at the CPSA is to be capable of B in your preferred discipline. Our experience shows moderate shots often make better instructors than the best shots. Self made high performers often have great difficulty coming down to the level of rising novices and understanding their problems.

 

Coaches fall into three types:

 

Unqualified mates who stand 10yds behind you and tell you to give it more lead. You are unlikely to benefit from there advise.

 

Unqualified coaches who have won fame and have a following of persons keen to emulate them

 

Qualified coaches at 4 levels.

 

Coaching is a skill that is entirely separate from shooting. A good coach needs to be able to analyse your personal style and abilities, have a variety of solutions available, and be able to apply the correct solution to the pupil, communicate it, and b e able to debrief each session.

 

TOP SHOTS get there by two ways, either they have an inbuilt hand/eye coordination ability that is unique to them, or they get there by hard work.

 

The very best tend to be the former, and many provide expensive coaching. The problem is, how does a world class shooter convey to an average shooter what is going on in his mind that makes him hit those most difficult of clays? Does this shooter have knowledge outside their preferred technique? If people wish to bask in the glory of top internationals they are welcome to spend their money in that way. Whether their personal shooting benefits or not is for them to decide.

 

Another group of unqualified ( or sometimes later qualified) coaches are top shots who are mere mortals without super inbuilt abilities. These people have listened, learned, practiced and got to the top by understanding their limitations and overcoming them. These people, whether they have later qualified or not, make good coaches, but the danger remains that they may be limited to their own experience and techniques if they remain unqualified.

 

Then there are the qualified.

 

Level one - basic instruction and gun fit. Qualified and assessed as being able to make a novice safely hit a simple target.

 

Level two ( discipline specific, ESP, ESK, or Trap) - capable of introducing some-one correctly to the discipline

 

Level three - qualified in all disciplines.

 

and finally those with International qualifications. The CPSA has just introduced Senior level coaching for FITASC, O/T, D/T, and O/S, and then there are ISSF and other international qualifications.

 

Too many people go on quick fixes, the only way to gain long term improvement is not an occasional 1hr lesson, but a progressive series to permanently change style and method/s used for the better.

 

I believe an experienced and qualified coach is likely to have the best ability to do this. Keith Stoker, Roger Hill, Chris Batha, Any Kirkland, Ian Cawthorne, Mike Williams are examples of coaches who can do this -and there are more.

 

My view is, if you want coaching, employ a coach for his/her coaching ability, they must be competent shots just to have got to where they are, but judge their coaching abilities, not their shooting abilities.

 

I may be mister average as a shot, but I am passionate about coaching. No-one ever regrets a lesson or more with me.

 

Jerry

CPSA Senior Coach and proud to be one

[berettaman1]

Ooh Erh, If you had read fully my complaints, and resulting barbs at your CPSA qualifications, as a head CPSA coach. ...you would have seen ,That my complaint, was, How can you tell shooters how to shoot?? if , on looking at your qualifacations, You are not very good yourself?? .....Its A bit like me standing at the side of a F1 circuit , Saying Schumacher dosent know what he is doing,!!! when he comes in !!!, I Will tell him where he is going wrong!!!.... If your training was that good/ knowledge?? how come you are nowhere in the standings.?? again I have responded to your barbs at my replies???.As I said in an earlear post you know what you are talking about as regards CPSA rules ,etc... but dont, please come on here and try to make others point of view worthless.? in Fact lets make it a challenge?? .. I am a old **** now, in my last year of competition shooting!!! In fact I am now shooting 10 bellow my usual sporting ave!! I only shoot 25 Skeet twice a year,.... Abt, the same>!!(100 all round)..... C,mon then Bud, Lets get it On!!!lets see if your vaunted shooting is the same?... or better than mine???

Edited April 23, 2008 by berettaman1

[beretta]

steady on now chaps.

 

each has their own benefits.

 

from my own point of view and NOT taking any sides here.

the best coaches i no of are.

 

steve nutbeam.

andrew harvison

joe neville.

carl bloxham.

our very own catamong is no slouch too i hear.

plus a few others.

 

all these are internationals, english champions, world champions and olympic champions.

 

i personally know of 1 shooter who was a moderate 'C' class sporting shot who went on a CPSA coaching course.

(he had been shooting 2 years) he passed the course with flying colours and now coaches at a very select ground in the north of england.

 

i do not think if i had a problem target that i would go to the guy up north to sort it out.

someone mentioned about having to use varying techniques and styles to overcome different situations.well, the coaches i have named above use these all the time, they have to or they would not be our best.

 

cpsa coaches are good at introducing people to our sport and bringing them on to a very good standad of marksmanship but cant just get them to be champions.

(olympic gold medallist richard foulds. coached by joe neville)

 

me done.

[eagleye]

you hear off a lot of coaches in differant sports that are not ex pros

tennis the williams sisters were coached by their dad he aint no expert

even lots of golfers are coached by people who never made the international curcuit

I'm not a quailfied plasterer but I have taught many a trainee some to become better than me just about lol