How would you Handle

[pavman]

To cut a long story short, for some time a very rich Italian in our area has been bying up all and any marsh etc for him and his chums to shoot, fair enough its an open market. Two years ago he buys a big chunk next to a big marsh one of the clubs I am in rents and has done for 15 years, he then digs flight ponds with no planning permission, feeds them and starts cracking off we should not shoot our marsh as its spoiling his sport, sends his game keepers down and causes hassle etc, I am down there one day last year and one of the game keepers tries to put the warning on me and says don’t shoot to close to his ponds he has Mafia connections and it could get nasty!

 

Edit to add, the Rich Italian now pays twice the rent we did for our old marsh to stop us shooting it, and has plans to do the same where ever he can pick up more marsh he will pay over the odds to obtain it for himself or stop others in the area

 

You can guess my answer

 

Anyway, the frost comes and my farmer calls me (1hr notice) to say got to say can you get down we have to get the Maize in, need walking guns for Rabbits and Charlies, I am at work but take 2 half days to attend but cant get my 2 mates who help me as to short notice, Farmer asks the contract cutting crew if they can help and who turns up but the rich Italians gamekeeps (One English and Two Italian and its the English guy I had a run in with, now bearing in mind my feelings and the fact that one of the Italians got the sack from another farm for shooting deer with a shottie I am not best pleased, no meeting called to sort safety out etc, so I let each of the 3 know how I feel and they all left, I told farmer later as he was milking and I could not get him at the time, I had to cover field on my own, lucky no Charlies where about to give the slip and next day I managed to get two local helpers.

 

The contract crew where not best pleased as the Italians are in there little gang, Farmer was fine and said he was sorry not to have told me first etc, but its left a bad feeling all round, I told him I was not going to stand opposite that lot on a field with Guns “accidents happen†I have thought it over a few times and other than left at the time don’t know what I could have done any different

 

Out Foxing tonight so with luck will get a chance to mull things over with Farmer and smooth it out.

Edited October 25, 2008 by pavman

[Baldrick]

The Italians sound like an accident waiting to happen. The rich Italian sounds like a thorn in the Club's side, but he has no leg to stand on whatsoever. And sending his goons to threaten you is pretty unwise. Whistle-blowing is not a crime, Pav.

 

 

The local farmer sounds like a much more permanent fixture. Stick by him, as in my experience, foreign land-owners are pretty transient.

[Cranfield]

I think in the circumstances I would have recognised that I had two choices, they left, or I left.

You chose the former, either choice would have been correct.

 

You are lucky to obviously have a good relationship with your Farmer, that is the thing that needs protecting the most.

 

With regards to the Italian/Mafia comments, I would take those with a pinch of salt.

[Nial]

It might be worth getting something that allows you to easily record conversations for the

next time one of the goons tries to have a 'wee chat' with you.

 

You can get some compact/cheap dictation machines these days that might do the

job.

 

 

 

Nial.

[Oly]

I would ask BASC for advice and get them to talk to the local FLO to see if they can help. No doubt they have 'bad neighbouring shoots' all over the place (albeit not so mafia related!) so they may well have some good experience to utilise. Furthermore it would then be them, and not you, involving the police - so the people directly effected may feel less agrieved towards you.

[codling99]

just tell them you ve got connections with the essex maffia ,bring it on

[Imperfection]

It might be worth getting something that allows you to easily record conversations for the

next time one of the goons tries to have a 'wee chat' with you.

 

You can get some compact/cheap dictation machines these days that might do the

job.

 

 

 

Nial.

 

This is excally what i thought and also get video evidence too because there isnt a privacy law which prevents you from doing so.I bet the Police would take a very dim view of this-even if they are idle threats and they need taking down a peg or two.

[Pinkfooty]

Pavman,

 

In another thread I mentioned that, despite being a "BASC Loyalist", I am sometimes critical of the organisation when it deserves fair and constructive criticism.

 

Although maybe not directly relevant to your situation, one of the areas where I think BASC get it wrong in a very major way is the way they get into bed with commercial interests. Up here in Scotland they even give office space to the "Country Sports Tourism Group" that actively encourages foreigners to come to UK to shoot our birds on our land.

 

The whole commercial thing is a prostitution of everything that BASC (or WAGBI) was formed to protect - i.e. the interests of the common man. It is a simple fact of life that as soon as you stimulate demand for something commercially, the price goes shooting up. The very people that our organisation was formed to protect are those who are now being priced out of their sport by parasitic commercial operators.

 

I have even seen "agents" advertising pigeon shooting for sale. Anyone my age can remember when farmers reimbursed pigeon shooters with the cost of their cartridges. The idea of anyone paying an agent to shoot vermin is simply obscene.

 

So, if you are not already a member of BASC, join today - and immediately write to their Chief Executive demanding that BASC denounces commercial operators and "shooting tourism". At the moment I seem to be a lone voice in saying that BASC is betraying its roots in this respect. I need some support in this fight.

 

Eric Begbie

 

 

P.S. - I understand that the Italians you are talking about are even planting their stooges in wildfowling clubs in East Anglia with a view to finding out what other land the clubs lease - presumably with a view to outbidding the clubs when leases need renewal. It makes an even greater case for us buying our own land wherever we can.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Pinkfooty

[MM]

or get your hands on a horses head, and have it delivered. that will put the ****s up em

[Imperfection]

or get your hands on a horses head, and have it delivered. that will put the ****s up em

 

 

Hey,this is England where we're much more subtle-a squirrels head will do..!

[MM]

i wouldnt know where to find one

[bignoel]

theres more way's than one to flog a horse ?

[JohnGalway]

If he needed planning to do the digging then a letter to the appropriate spot wouldn't go amiss. Not usually one for that kind of thing but the guy sounds a proper ***** so all is fair in love and war. Your farmer sounds like a good soul so as said stick by him, explain what you think and why. That you and yours will be there a lot longer than an Italian that could up sticks in the morning.

 

As for the Italian or any of his mafia, personally, I'd tell them to go **** themselves if they approached me on my permission doing whatever I was doing.

 

Talk is cheap. Not every Irish person has connections to people in balaclavas, so I'd take the Mafia connection as a pile of **** to be honest.

[markbivvy]

I'd tell them to go **** themselves .top man john.

[David BASC]

Typically I think you do need planning for digging a pond in a filed as it comes under ‘Change of Use’ so I guess you could ask for more guidance from the local planning office.

 

I think it is so important for clubs to buy land where they can, OK I know not all clubs are stuffed with cash, but it is worth investigating what funding options are out there. If you can’t buy the land see if you can buy the shooting rights or at least tie up the shooting rights on a long term lease.

 

Just a point but if a guy with a gun or a guy who I knew had ready access to gun threatened me, know where my next call would be!

 

As has been said, good relationships with landlords are worth their weight in gold!

 

David

 

PS I agree with Mark but as I have my BASC hat on I cant say as much!

[dustyfox]

Get some travellers in, they will do the job for ya, to get rid of them.

[bignoel]

wounder if they are useing steel shot over wetlands ?

[henry d]

wounder if they are useing steel shot over wetlands ?

 

My initial thoughts were the same, however as it is Guy Fawkes soon, small rockets are cheap and I`m sure you could find out where and when they are shooting

[pavman]

Pavman,

 

In another thread I mentioned that, despite being a "BASC Loyalist", I am sometimes critical of the organisation when it deserves fair and constructive criticism.

 

Although maybe not directly relevant to your situation, one of the areas where I think BASC get it wrong in a very major way is the way they get into bed with commercial interests. Up here in Scotland they even give office space to the "Country Sports Tourism Group" that actively encourages foreigners to come to UK to shoot our birds on our land.

 

The whole commercial thing is a prostitution of everything that BASC (or WAGBI) was formed to protect - i.e. the interests of the common man. It is a simple fact of life that as soon as you stimulate demand for something commercially, the price goes shooting up. The very people that our organisation was formed to protect are those who are now being priced out of their sport by parasitic commercial operators.

 

I have even seen "agents" advertising pigeon shooting for sale. Anyone my age can remember when farmers reimbursed pigeon shooters with the cost of their cartridges. The idea of anyone paying an agent to shoot vermin is simply obscene.

 

So, if you are not already a member of BASC, join today - and immediately write to their Chief Executive demanding that BASC denounces commercial operators and "shooting tourism". At the moment I seem to be a lone voice in saying that BASC is betraying its roots in this respect. I need some support in this fight.

 

Eric Begbie

 

 

P.S. - I understand that the Italians you are talking about are even planting their stooges in wildfowling clubs in East Anglia with a view to finding out what other land the clubs lease - presumably with a view to outbidding the clubs when leases need renewal. It makes an even greater case for us buying our own land wherever we can.

 

 

Typically I think you do need planning for digging a pond in a filed as it comes under ‘Change of Use’ so I guess you could ask for more guidance from the local planning office.

 

I think it is so important for clubs to buy land where they can, OK I know not all clubs are stuffed with cash, but it is worth investigating what funding options are out there. If you can’t buy the land see if you can buy the shooting rights or at least tie up the shooting rights on a long term lease.

 

Just a point but if a guy with a gun or a guy who I knew had ready access to gun threatened me, know where my next call would be!

 

As has been said, good relationships with landlords are worth their weight in gold!

 

David

 

PS I agree with Mark but as I have my BASC hat on I cant say as much!

Guys I am indeed a BASC member and Eric I have the same info as you ref trying to obtain details of clubs land in order to outbid them,

 

However it would be wise for me only to comment on my situation rather than hear say, I understand the environmental agency are looking at the case of ponds dug without permission and that retrospective planning consent has been applied for under the guise of Engineering works!

 

The fact is a large pump was brought in and the water to flood was drawn from the River Waveney, now there must have been some wrong doing but watch the money talk and no follow up in court i suspect

 

I will never be able to prove what took place on the marsh so its pointless to some degree however cards have been marked and any nasty business from now on will be treated as required with Police etc, its very hard when folk have a combination of money and power and no regard for others, a very good friend of mine had a similar experience last year when a Party of the Italians came and shot over a bird reserve next to the marsh he shoots and claimed they did not understand and where all very sorry speaky no Englasey we in wrong place etc, again no prosecution as far as I know. It should also be mentioned that this same friend saw them shoot non legal quarry waterfowl.

 

Folk like this are worse than any Anti could be, bring our pastime in to disrepute and are extremely difficult to deal with, a few people will be making money out of it and will form a protective shield to some degree of that you can be sure, in the mean time local guns are losing traditional land or getting priced out in order that a very few very wealthy foreigners can enjoy the English countryside

[Lloyd90]

If they have been granted SGC/FAC I doubt the FEO would be very happy to hear them making threats to people.

Anything like this just report it mate, its not a joke and people like this asshat dont deserve to shoot!

[starlight32]

Guys I am indeed a BASC member and Eric I have the same info as you ref trying to obtain details of clubs land in order to outbid them,

 

However it would be wise for me only to comment on my situation rather than hear say, I understand the environmental agency are looking at the case of ponds dug without permission and that retrospective planning consent has been applied for under the guise of Engineering works!

 

The fact is a large pump was brought in and the water to flood was drawn from the River Waveney, now there must have been some wrong doing but watch the money talk and no follow up in court i suspect

 

I will never be able to prove what took place on the marsh so its pointless to some degree however cards have been marked and any nasty business from now on will be treated as required with Police etc, its very hard when folk have a combination of money and power and no regard for others, a very good friend of mine had a similar experience last year when a Party of the Italians came and shot over a bird reserve next to the marsh he shoots and claimed they did not understand and where all very sorry speaky no Englasey we in wrong place etc, again no prosecution as far as I know. It should also be mentioned that this same friend saw them shoot non legal quarry waterfowl.

 

Folk like this are worse than any Anti could be, bring our pastime in to disrepute and are extremely difficult to deal with, a few people will be making money out of it and will form a protective shield to some degree of that you can be sure, in the mean time local guns are losing traditional land or getting priced out in order that a very few very wealthy foreigners can enjoy the English countryside

 

The word spreads far and wide about the 'Italian' in East Anglia. Dealt with him as a club committe member in mediation over the marshes mentioned in the previous posts. In reality our club shot those marshes for 29 years!!! He bid over double what we are paying, just so it was not shot by anyone....

 

What I fail to understand is how many true gamekeepers do you know who would go shooting rabbits on a strangers farm? Everykeeper I know and have ever met has more shooting to shake a stick at let alone worrying about a few rabbits. This is where i make my point when I too had a tear up last year with one of the above mentioned gamekeepers. They ain'nt keepers merely glorified bird feeders thats all.

 

The thread is serious to the availablilty of the working man' shooting with this guy....But i know one thing it is good to see the news spread.

 

On a further note it also learnt me another important lesson when dealing with a guy like this..... Don't mediate as people with money don't want to deal with the working man and inevitably stiff you up in the end.

 

As for the Italians stooges bit all the clubs will sniffle them out..... And if they are local people they may as well pack up shooting all together

Edited October 26, 2008 by starlight32

[Pinkfooty]

Pavman and Starlight,

 

The only reason that I know anything about this situation is that it was raised officially by one of the East Anglian reps at BASC's Wildfowling Liaison Committee back in February.

 

Sorry if you thought I was treading on your toes.

 

Couldn't resist the opportunity to have a rant about my pet subject - BASC actively encouraging foreigners to come over here to shoot.

[pavman]

Pavman and Starlight,

 

The only reason that I know anything about this situation is that it was raised officially by one of the East Anglian reps at BASC's Wildfowling Liaison Committee back in February.

 

Sorry if you thought I was treading on your toes.

 

Couldn't resist the opportunity to have a rant about my pet subject - BASC actively encouraging foreigners to come over here to shoot.

 

Fill yer boots Eric, however I am sure there are very many folk that come over, enjoy what we have to offer and go home happy most likley putting a bit of hard cash into our coffers to boot,

 

In this situation he liked it so much he stayed and is making things rather unpleasent for the likes of small local east anglian clubs and small shoots who rent mash and ponds rather than own them,

 

Some of the methods employed in the process are darn right unethical but with oodles of cash and henchmen willing to do the dirty work the small local shooting man has no chance and the big local shooting man remains insulated if he is lucky enough to own his own manor and therefore remains untouched by present circumstance. If there was ever a warning to any of us to try as hard as possible to buy land this should provide you with no small measure of incentive, rented shooting rights are worth what someone is willing to pay and if another mans pockets are deeper than yours history and friendship may well count for nowt!

[Suffolk shooter]

Bit of a rare thing this me coming on here but couldn't miss the chance to add to the list of incidents by the Italien.

 

Pavman and Starlight32, you haven't mentioned the recent beater shooting incident which was hushed up with £20k (not enough obviously as we all know about it). What about the shooting of the valleys resident canada population to almost non-existent proportions?

 

It has been recently brought up again at the Broadlands Joint Council meetings again regarding supposed infiltration. Sad, but money always gets what it wants in the long run. mind you with the recent credit crunch/recession and given the "gentleman" in questions work, I doubt whether he'll have much of it at the moment.

 

SS

[pavman]

Bit of a rare thing this me coming on here but couldn't miss the chance to add to the list of incidents by the Italien.

 

Pavman and Starlight32, you haven't mentioned the recent beater shooting incident which was hushed up with £20k (not enough obviously as we all know about it). What about the shooting of the valleys resident canada population to almost non-existent proportions?

It has been recently brought up again at the Broadlands Joint Council meetings again regarding supposed infiltration. Sad, but money always gets what it wants in the long run. mind you with the recent credit crunch/recession and given the "gentleman" in questions work, I doubt whether he'll have much of it at the moment.

 

SS

 

I was told the alleged incedent happend when taking on a on a very low Partridge, could not find anything on it but locals in the loop know more, not sure how bad it was,