Electronic training collar

[David BASC]

If this has been done to death sorry- please bin it.... but I keep seeing ads for these 'training aids' and people asking where to get them or indeed how to repair them (due to over use?).

 

I am old fashioned, I believe and have always practiced that there is no quick fix to training- no matter what it is for, and especially with dogs.

 

Progressive reward based training is the way to go, have goals, know what you are doing, make the instructions clear, and do not expect immediate 100% success!

 

I accept that in some very rare cases with dogs with severs behavior problems electronic collars can have a roll to play IF the alternative is a one way trip to the vet.

 

BUT as a regular training aid?

 

Can they or are they being used not as a last resort but because the ‘trainer’ knows no different and can’t figure out why the dog is not doing what he / she wants?

 

Would the word of gundogs be better or worse if these things never existed?

 

David

[pavman]

David

 

from the tone it appears that perhaps you are gaining info for a public relations project?

Edited November 10, 2008 by pavman

[David BASC]

Nope,

 

The BASC position is clear on the web site, this is just me David posting.

 

If it was an 'official' BASC post I would make that very clear- only fair I guess

 

David

[WGD]

For me they are too easily accessible and the fact they can be picked from the shelf when you've had a bad session with your dog means they can be bought as a knee jerk reaction by an inexperienced handler and can easily be mis-used.

 

In severe cases, and in the hands of an experienced trainer who knows and understands exactly how and more importantly when punishment should be administered, they have their uses I'm sure.

 

But I am equally sure many are used in situations where the dog does not KNOW the basics therefore it does not know what it's being punished for.

 

Then again, is the use of an electric collar any worse than the treatment by some "handlers" who feel the big stick approach is best resulting in dogs being kicked, hit or physically abused in some other way?

 

WGD

[cracker]

David

from the tone it appears that perhaps you are gaining info for a public relations project?

 

No, from the tone it's the proverbial loaded questions, in this case loaded with AC/DC charge.

 

Electric collars are training aids if you're training specifically for something not likely to be attained without their use. To wit, an American FTCh. retriever. Otherwise, even statements disguised as loaded questions--posed or delivered, officially or unofficially--have a ring of veracity to them.

 

MG

[David BASC]

Not trying to be clever or deceitful, I am all in favor of more traditional methods of training but was genuinely wondering what the feeling was among other dog owners / trainers like me who are not training dogs for a living etc but just as good honest working gundogs.

 

Cards on the table, just incase any of you are unclear on where I personally stand - I do not like electronic collars, I would not use one myself, but used to be pretty open minded – each to their own as it were.

 

But on one occasion I did have a word, in private, with a new chap who joined us beating who was using a collar on his dog while it was in the beating line.. When I asked him why he said it was because the dog kept running away from him and he could not control it. I think that finally did it for me and collars!

 

David

[rarms]

David,

 

Have you ever used one?

 

If not then how do you know you would not find one useful? They are not about punishment but about stimuli.

 

I don't see the problem with them. Most of them come with a training dvd or simlar, there are plenty of tutorials on the web.

 

If people want to hurt their dog, they can use a stick. Suggesting that they can be bought as a knee jerk reaction to a badly behaved dog is in my view a bit weak.

 

Incidentally, what is the BASC opinion of them?

[David BASC]

No I have never used one - and I am not convinced that punishment is a good training tool- perhaps that is my main point and perhaps I was wrong thus to concentrate on electronic collars only.

 

Reward to reinforce good behaviors works well in my experience.

 

I have never used a piece of rubber pipe either but I have heard that some do.

 

I have never thumped or kicked my dog when he –eventually – comes back after I have called him several times, but I have seen others do this.

 

I have never hit my dog because he brought back the wrong dummy but again I have seen others do this

 

In my experience of training, and not just dogs, I have never found fear or fear of punishment a positive tool in the normal environment.

 

BASC’s position on collars is pretty clear and is on the gundog section of the web site.

 

David

[Bango]

No I have never used one - and I am not convinced that punishment is a good training tool- perhaps that is my main point and perhaps I was wrong thus to concentrate on electronic collars only.

 

Reward to reinforce good behaviors works well in my experience.

 

I have never used a piece of rubber pipe either but I have heard that some do.

 

I have never thumped or kicked my dog when he –eventually – comes back after I have called him several times, but I have seen others do this.

 

I have never hit my dog because he brought back the wrong dummy but again I have seen others do this

 

In my experience of training, and not just dogs, I have never found fear or fear of punishment a positive tool in the normal environment.

 

BASC’s position on collars is pretty clear and is on the gundog section of the web site.

 

David

 

I think David sums it up here folks.

 

BUT if the last resort from saving the dog from a vets needle is an e-collar in the correct hands, i.e Pro Trainer I think they have a use.

 

Just on that note, anybody buying e-collars from the states, keep away from Tri-Tronics.

 

The reason.......They contain lead solder which is a band substance in the UK. If customs do examin the collar they will destroy and possible place a fine on you.

 

Dogtra Collars and releases are free from lead solder.

[Bazooka Joe]

Cards on the table, just incase any of you are unclear on where I personally stand - I do not like electronic collars, I would not use one myself, but used to be pretty open minded – each to their own as it were.

 

That just about sums it up for me as well David. This subject came up a while ago, & I felt the same way about these collars, then I had an interesting correspondence with NTTF, who does use these for training.

 

Like I say I'm against them, but in the instance he gave as to just one training method, ie; Dogs & Snakes, I could see they do maybe have a use. Not used all the time, but as a refresher course now & then to remind the dog to keep clear.

 

Never say Never.

[pavman]

David,

 

Have you ever used one?

 

If not then how do you know you would not find one useful? They are not about punishment but about stimuli.

 

I don't see the problem with them. Most of them come with a training dvd or simlar, there are plenty of tutorials on the web.

 

If people want to hurt their dog, they can use a stick. Suggesting that they can be bought as a knee jerk reaction to a badly behaved dog is in my view a bit weak.

 

Incidentally, what is the BASC opinion of them?

 

Rather well put me thinks,

 

PS no one seems to have a problem with the sale of electric fence cord for cattle/sheep far from being stupid they learn very quickly, farmers are not about to want to harm their stock so why oh why do others think an dog owner with a training collor wants to hurt his/her dog

 

Because like antis they have a fixed view and are seldom likley to look at the big picture if it differs from what they percieve

[rarms]

No I have never used one - and I am not convinced that punishment is a good training tool- perhaps that is my main point and perhaps I was wrong thus to concentrate on electronic collars only.

 

...

 

 

David

 

David,

 

Perhaps you missed the part in my post where I said:

 

"They are not about punishment but about stimuli."

 

They are called "training collars", not "electrocute the **** out of your dog collars".

 

If they are abused or used incorrectly then yes I don't doubt that they can have negative effects and be cruel, however if I abuse my dog with a stick I am being cruel and it is easier to do that if I wanted to punish my dog that spend money on a collar. The fact that people don't understand the collars of the methods of using them are I think part of the problem. I am sure you will find a training video on youtube, have a look at it. Failing that maybe someone here will have one they could lend you.

 

If you have never used one what are you basing your opinion of them on?

 

 

Could you link me to the BASC section please as I did briefly look last night but couldn't find it.

 

Many thanks

 

Kyle

[Lancs Lad]

Got one myself - was purchased when I was having problems with stop command.

 

Only got it after the boy chased off after a horse.

 

Went back to the lead work and fine, but then off the lead he played up.

 

Was then used.

 

And now he seems to stop fine.

 

He knows what it is too...........

 

 

Its used on setting 3, which is very low. He doesnt get nailed every time only on "Serious" breaches when I am not in "stopping" distance.

 

Infact, anyone who wants one second hand, then drop me a PM.

 

Canicalm collar and remote.

[David BASC]

If you want to see that BASC position on collars just go to the gundog home page- click on gundogs and then gundog deapartment . I will try to post the link here but i have been known to cock this up in the past!

 

http://basc.org.uk/content/gundogsdept

 

Whay cant I 'bash on' with my oppinion? Is that not what you are doing? is that not what everyone is doing? is that not what a forum can be used for? I dont want to start an argument but frankly I am sure that i am free ot express my opinion as much as you are Kyle - whether you agree with me or not is up to you of course and vice versa.

 

If you stil have trouble with the link please let me know.

 

Bye for now

 

David

[Cranfield]

Like many other things, if used by someone who knows what they are doing, then they are fine.

 

In the hands of the wrong people I can imagine them being abused and used as a tool to relieve the frustration of the amateur handler (at his own inadequacies).

[silver_pigeon]

my opinion is that these should be used as a last resort!

 

You have to have a certificate to buy a shotgun or firearm....why should you just be able to by a charged collar that can do damage!

 

There have been some horror stories of people using conductive gel with these collars, its wrong!

The dog in order to abide, must respect the human voice and command, the respect has to come from there! If they do not...then it will only ever be fear that makes them submit to the collar! It is the fear of pain and discomfort, not respect for the accompanying request or command being thrown in alongside!

 

Someone I know wanted to use one of these, I was dead against it from the outset and so so glad I stood my ground as a hell of al ot of hard work and the dog is now on command!

 

The only situation I have seen a collar agreeably used in is to prevent a Jack Russel who has the run of a farm from escaping onto a main road...he only had one shock and that was it, he never strays out of the farm gates!

 

All in all, I think it must be an experienced trainer who would use one of these as a last resort....I think it is shocking that they are on the shelves at pets at home for all owners to buy!

[pavman]

Like many other things, if used by someone who knows what they are doing, then they are fine.

 

In the hands of the wrong people I can imagine them being abused and used as a tool to relieve the frustration of the amateur handler (at his own inadequacies).

 

 

well put sir,

 

and like most things in life a few will spoil it for the many, look out for druggies turning to antibiotics for kicks and we will need another branch of medicine because we are very good in the UK at not dealing with the route cause of the problem rather we try to limit the effect by banning/penalising everyone,

 

as an example binge drinkers, they don’t drink because its cheap now do they, but those of us that enjoy a modest glass of wine with a meal can look forward to paying more for the enjoyment because as a nation we can invade the world to put right wrongs but we still cant resolve simple basic issues like public order as there is no real deterrent for offenders!

 

Ps sorry for the sidetrack

[al4x]

I've seen them used properly to re-inforce the stop command, no matter how good your dog it takes a lot to stop them chasing hares etc when out, the two I've seen were springers and they would be spot on until a hare got up and then dissapear out of sight. Ok you could let them or beat them but personally the e-collar is non confrontational and works. Where we are its either that on a dog that won't stop or run the risk of it ending up on a road with the resulting danger to itself and the motorist.

[rarms]

> 'bash on'

 

 

Who said anything about what you can or can't 'bash on' about?

 

And incidentally, the link doesn't work. You have missed out the WWW

Edited November 12, 2008 by rarms

[Santlache]

I've got one for barking, when the collar is fixed on and they bark it triggers it. It has three settings High, Medium and Low.

 

Works fine, except my dog now knows what it is and runs away when she sees it, when on she sits there terrified, tail down, ears back so I stopped using it. I've also used one you trigger yourself but I wasn't all that impressed with it, as David says training and reward over time is the best solution.

 

As for a Dog which is a problem when out working, some dogs take to it like a duck to water and their breeding immediately kicks in. However, I do believe that with some dogs you could flog a dead horse and that would be easier than trying to get them to work, some just don't have it in them.

 

Start 'em young is my motto, you'll soon know if and what they are capable of, or not as the case maybe.

 

It's different with Terriers anyway and I would never ever force a dog due to the nature of their work, which could and does put their life in danger when face to face with Charlie.

 

Cheers

[David BASC]

Sorry for the cock up with the link hope you have found it now.

 

As I said I have not used them but I have seen them abused.

 

Maybe I am just looking at life in a simplistic way, but I often fear that ‘technology’ is sometimes used in place of good old fashioned skill and practice and patience.

 

Dog training as any of you will know is a long process it cannot be achieved over night and needs continuous reinforcement, and electronic collar cannot make up for this, it is not a short cut in my opinion, but I have seen it used as such.

 

Typically if a dog will not stop to the whistle, or come back to the whistle it is because you have not got the training right, will a collar make up for that? No of course not.

 

Keeping a dog steady is important as you don’t want it running off after hares and rabbits, but again we go beck to basics, if this is a problem then get a mate to help you with distraction training – just my thoughts.

 

D

[pavman]

Sorry for the cock up with the link hope you have found it now.

 

As I said I have not used them but I have seen them abused.

 

Maybe I am just looking at life in a simplistic way, but I often fear that ‘technology’ is sometimes used in place of good old fashioned skill and practice and patience.

 

D

 

an interesting point of view and of course well founded,

 

However I must dash as I have a one inch hole to drill in two foot of concrete to sink a new cable and just cant decide weather to go traditional Brace and Bit good old fashioned skill and practice and patience. Or go with a Kango Drill

 

no mocking intended, my point is that on some occausions some folk may wish to try different methods to get the same end result and as long as it undertaken with care and due consideration and only in well thought out situations ‘technology’ can perhaps help at times

Edited November 13, 2008 by pavman

[David BASC]

Fair point - I am afraid that sometimes my mind is stuck in the 19th Century not the 21st!

 

I accept if they are properly used to correct bad behaviors then maybe they have a place in the right hands - but I still cannot get my head round them being used as a basic training aid.

 

David

[al4x]

on a side note and not saying you do it but I've seen some of the more traditional techniques and have shot with some very good gundog trainers who I am sure wouldn't use electronic aids, but sure as anything have been known to dish out a good beating to a dog that has misbehaved. Ok some of these didn't do it again some did they always turned into impecably well behaved dogs but personally I'd not want to do it even though I would use a collar.

[CharlieT]

Now I have "trained", well perhaps trained is a slight egsaduration, quite a few gun dogs and sheepdogs over my 60 odd years. Sometimes a particular dog that shows promise will have one particular trait that requires correction. This may be unsteadiness to sheep, chasing tractors turning a deaf ear to the stop whistle or whatever.

The cleaver clogs will say "ah go back to basics and all will be well". Well I can tell you that sometimes it won't and this is where the electric collar comes in. Used with common sense these collars do work and in a very, very short time the dog will be back on the whistle.

I have one of these collars which I have used on one springer and one collie and have lent it to several people who have used it on theirs and believe me these dogs would have been passed on or shot of it was not for the collar but are now leading happy working lives.

Electric collars have a place in the dog training kit box along with the lead, whistle and dummy.