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.17HMR Whats your longest Kill ?


Matt Gould
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the vast majority of factors affecting accuracy increase in a linear fashion with distance

 

If the speed of the projectile is constant...which it isn't, its slowing down all the time which means that everything (wind, gravity etc) that is effecting the round effects it exponentially with regards to speed of the projectile.

 

Oh and as for the Coriolis effect you don't need to worry about that unless your at the controls of a deck gun drawing a bead on something 12 miles away :yes:

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LOL!

 

OK, you have to realise that trajectory and accuracy are COMPLETELY unrelated.

 

Say if you do not, and I will try to explain it for you.

 

 

How is that then?

 

Trajectory and accuracy are COMPLETELY unrelated?

 

To be accurate at any range you need to know the trajectory of your bullet.

 

So please by all means explain away, you are doing a blinding job so far.

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OK, I will explain.

 

Let's start off by defining "accuracy". By this I am referring to how well the gun groups, as obviously you can change the point of zero to wherever you want after that.

 

Now we have to realise that the trajectory of a gun has nothing to do with its accuracy. It does not matter if a bullet has dropped 1 inch over a 100m distance, or 1 foot. As long as each subsequent bullet drops the same amount, then the gun's accuracy will be undiminished. Of course, no bullets fly exactly the same way each time, as you will know, all the factors such as bullet weight, powder charge, case volume etc etc will ensure that the velocity is slightly different each time. But it is the amount of variation that defines the accuracy of the gun.

 

Of course, the ballistic curve is caused by the bullet slowing down and therefore gravity has a greater effect per unit of distance travelled. This slowing down also means that wind will have a greater effect the further downrange it is - hence why I admitted earlier that wind was the only effect on a bullet that does not have a linear relationship with its accuracy.

 

So obviously a very flat shooting gun such as a 30-378 will have a much flatter trajectory than say a 45-70, but they could both have 1MOA accuracy, and therefore will both produce 1" groups at 100m, and the same relative accuracy the further out you go, until you reach the maximum range of that given round.

 

I trust now you can see how bullet drop has nothing to do with the ACCURACY of the gun, although it will definitely make hitting things further away more challenging unless you have a firm handle on the ballistics of your chosen round, and how to use these in conjunction with your scope/sights.

 

OK?

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If the speed of the projectile is constant...which it isn't, its slowing down all the time which means that everything (wind, gravity etc) that is effecting the round effects it exponentially with regards to speed of the projectile.

 

Oh and as for the Coriolis effect you don't need to worry about that unless your at the controls of a deck gun drawing a bead on something 12 miles away :yes:

 

agreed, but one of those two factors, gravity, is constant (or at least constant enough for us not to worry about it here) and the other, wind, is occasionally not present, which allows us to discount them both when talking about the inherent accuracy of a gun

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cant help thinking that sniperfox36 and baldrick are sitting together in a pub somewhere laughing their rrrrrr off at all the insults and bad feeling this thread has fed-lets all play nice now please cos its getting silly :yes:

 

no insults or bad feelings from this side...just educating the masses :hmm:

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Wannabefisher, you're obviously quite clued up (do you do a lot of reading?). The trouble is you're missing out all the variables that come along in field conditions. A HMR may shoot MOA at 100 yards (mine does with ease) but when you push it out to double that range it just doesn't work. I can't be ***** to explain why, it just doesn't.

 

I'd go as far as saying that if you could put ten shots in a row into a 3" circle at 300 yards with my HMR rifle, you can take it home with you for free. It just isn't going to happen. :yes:

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Wannabefisher, you're obviously quite clued up (do you do a lot of reading?). The trouble is you're missing out all the variables that come along in field conditions. A HMR may shoot MOA at 100 yards (mine does with ease) but when you push it out to double that range it just doesn't work. I can't be ***** to explain why, it just doesn't.

 

I'd go as far as saying that if you could put ten shots in a row into a 3" circle at 300 yards with my HMR rifle, you can take it home with you for free. It just isn't going to happen. :yes:

 

thanks I appreciate the sensible reply. It's a shame you can't be bothered to explain it to me (genuinely I would like to know what your thoughts are), but could you quickly tell me (in list format if you want!) which factors other than wind contribute to this, as I am unaware of any?

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I could try. I'm no expert myself mind. The only reason I know it doesn't happen is because I've tried at targets,beer cans etc, and not had much success!

 

Firstly there is wind. You say is that all, but it is actually a major factor. Even a light breeze will push a 17grn pill out a long way at that range, and wind is never exactly the same strength constantly. It may even be swirling in different directions according to local features such as trees and ground layout, so potentially could push the bullet higher or lower to a point too.

 

Second there is powder variation. In such a small case even a tiny variation in charge will change the velocity, and at range that will be more obvious than it is withing 100 yards (where the velocity is so high the odd FPS or ten doesn't change much).

 

When the bullet slows down it has a much harder job staying stable. It may even start to tumble when it really loses energy. I'd imagine this would be past 300 yards, but it has to start to wobble somewhere. Even a slight misalignment will start to push it out a little.

 

Add all these factors together and the accuracy will drop off in a big way. I would trust a HMR in the right hands out to 200 yards on a calm day, after that you're playing with luck. You have to consider that larger rifles that are used to shoot out to these ranges have a huge amount more power. A .223 is seen to be accurate to 600 at a push, and that's with a fast twist barrel and heavy bullets. A 75grn bullet at 1000+ ft-lbs is going to buck the conditions far better than a HMR at 17grns and 245ft-lbs. A .300 Win Mag can do 1000 yards, but that's with 180 grn bullets at 4500ish ft-lbs.

 

There is a pattern here. You have to push a vast amount more power to get little gain when shooting out to longer ranges. Think about it, all these guns start off shooting MOA but depending on power, accuracy drops off at different ranges. I wouldn't have thought a .50BMG is much good past 1500 yards, and they run at around 10,000 ft-lbs and throw massive bullets! :yes:

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ok, i don't see why any of those factors would apply in a non linear fashion apart from wind - which I am not discounting as a factor, just saying let's assume it's a still day!

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for taking the time to reply, if you do change your mind and want to discuss it let me know :yes:

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i will never answer a question on here again just not worth it

 

I have spent all day in the house waiting for BT (who failed to show) and i have enjoyed folowing this thread. I use a 17 hmr myself and do not doubt it's capability at this range, if the man with the gun is happy to take the shot and the backstop is good then i see no reason not to try. At all times a clean kill is desired but if you wait for 100% guarantee of success you would never take a shot. Don't stop the reply's. :yes:

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ok, i don't see why any of those factors would apply in a non linear fashion apart from wind - which I am not discounting as a factor, just saying let's assume it's a still day!

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for taking the time to reply, if you do change your mind and want to discuss it let me know :yes:

 

 

And I guess if you want to come and show me how it's done you're welcome to! You can group my rifle at 100 then group it at 3x whatever that is at 300. Then we can agree for once!

 

Just out of interest, how much shooting experience do you have, and what calibres have you used regularly?

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And I guess if you want to come and show me how it's done you're welcome to! You can group my rifle at 100 then group it at 3x whatever that is at 300. Then we can agree for once!

 

Just out of interest, how much shooting experience do you have, and what calibres have you used regularly?

 

haha - I could take you up on that challenge and win very easily, how much do you want to bet??? (PS I would guarantee a win by cheating :yes:)

 

i've been shooting in some capacity (started off with 22 short and .17 air rifle) for about 20 years. Currently own a 12b, 20b, 22lr. 17hmr, .243, and have a slot for a 308. Have been lucky enough to shoot a pretty good variety of rifles and calibres - got a date with a .700NE coming up soon!

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Head shot on a mole at 978 yards . But must admit it was a lucky shot as the round bounced around a bit from a number of fence posts ,bounced off 3 tractors and a beet harvester ,crossed two main roads . Did the business in the end .

Harnser .

 

Damn it man!! You know its not ethical to bounce rounds off farm equipment :yes:

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