Raja Clavata Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi All, Our 12 week old GSP dog puppy soils his crate most nights. We started off feeding him up to 4 hours before putting him down. Based on advice from a trainer we then moved the time out by 2 hours; no improvement. Currently we seem to get, most nights, between 5 & 6 hours before his whimpering starts which is almost for sure a sign that he has soiled the cage. We obviously put him outside before putting him down, sometimes he does the #2's other times not but either way it has little bearing on whether or not he subsequently soils in the night. He makes no fuss when being put down for the night now and seems comforatble entering and staying in his crate. In fact, when left alone he's clearly happier in the crate than he is being given the full run of the utility room(where the crate is located). Just wondered if anyone had any ideas on how we might try to correct this and / or indeed if this is something that needs to be corrected at this stage. Appreciate that we should perhaps tried to have gotten on top of this before now but to be honest just getting him to be quiet at night was our first and foremost priority (we followed all the established instructions on crate training but our progress suggested he was one on the more stubborn dogs). Wondered if it was worth trying to break the cycle by putting him in the car crate one night in the utility room rather than usual crate? I've also suggested to the wife that we could try setting the alarm for say 5 hours after we put him down each night and take it in turns to get him up and try to get him to empty out - my concern would be creating a rod for own back without necessarily seeing any maked improvement in the soiling and ensuing laundry pile? Open to all ideas and suggestions? There are plenty of other things that need work so this could be the start of a mini-series of posts... Best regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 How big is his crate Mike? As a rule of thumb dogs hate to soil their sleeping quarters, so making the crate space smaller may help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi, Thanks for the reply. The crate is an extra large savic but with a partition such that he has pretty much the minimum room i.e. stand, turn around and lay down. It was thinking along similar lines with the idea to use the smaller car crate. Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 what are you feeding him and how much? If he's making a noise it sounds like he doesn't want to do it, keep on putting him out after food and hopefully it will get better as he gets older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thanks for the reply. He's on beta puppy, just upped his daily amount to 480 grams over three feeds. We are open to a change, will look at the existing threads on alternative puppy feeds. Appreciate that all dogs are different but anyone know how many times a 12 week old GSP should be doing #2's a day? He normally does 4 sometimes 5. Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I'd be tempted to try dropping the last feed amount and spreading it over the other two. Thats a fair amount of food so i'm not surprised it has to come out the other end, I've just googled it and thats the very top end of what you should be feeding by the sounds of it so I'd be tempted to cut it back a bit. Keep the trips out to the garden frequent and see how you go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thanks. Yep, we started him off at 240 grams when we first got him at 8 weeks and have ramped it up gradually since then. He's about 11kg's now; in the past week and coincident with him now being fully vaccinated and hence being taken out, a little too much rib and bone was showing (probably alright for a working adult but not quite the appearance one expects of a pup). We're already making the first two feeds of the day the major ones but could try thinning out the last one a bit more. It's possible that we may have slightly overdone the last increment a little, will back it off a bit as well. That said, I'm increasingly thinking these might not be the most significant factors (because he's always been soiling like this since we got him) and so it might be worth transitioning to another brand. Will update soon. Appreciate both of your input. Best Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Is he actually eating all of his feeds up or struggling to finish them? Even though you may feel that he is skinny not all puppys have that layer of puppy fat you can picture them having. Reduce the feed a little like you have mentioned and see how that goes. Also is his toiletting area outside free of distractions, because if there are things that he would much rather play and sniff or eat etc it will distract him from actually doing his business even if he is bursting to go he will forget and go and play. Also do not stress about the indoor toiletting, he is still young and also will be more likely to do it if you react in anyway to his accidents. Praise highly for the outside toileting and dont tel off for any accidents they will happen. Goodluck :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I'd be tempted to try dropping the last feed amount and spreading it over the other two. Thats a fair amount of food so i'm not surprised it has to come out the other end, I've just googled it and thats the very top end of what you should be feeding by the sounds of it so I'd be tempted to cut it back a bit. Keep the trips out to the garden frequent and see how you go :( LB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Thanks for the further input. He has a healthy appetite, not missed a single kibble of the beta puppy, ever. The garden is pretty much as distraction free as it can be whilst still being classed as a garden. He did the business last night at about 10pm. At 03:30 he started fussing and a little while later I came down figuring he'd soiled the crate again; not so. My initial thoughts were damn he's done me and just wants to "play" but I let him out and he went and did his business again. Back to the crate after a few minutes without any fuss, which was a relief, and kept quiet until just before 07:00. Tonight will prove whether or not that was a randon fluke, fingers crossed! Certainly not fussed about the house training, our focus is on getting a good nights sleep, from that we can build and work further on everything else. Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Where do you feed him? If you're not feeding him in the cage already, I suggest you do so - dogs don't like to **** where they eat Also, what are you cleaning the cage with. I know it's tempting to use these deodorising spray thingummybobs but more often than no they have chemicals in which encourage toilet habits Make sure you are using the correct product and it will save you a lot of headaches! Other thing - if he is getting attention from ANYTHING he will keep doing it. No-one likes a whimpering dog, not least a **** covered whimpering dog, but it will be worth leaving him till you get up. If he makes the connection that ******** himself and whimpering/howling get him attention then no matter what you do he will keep at it. Sad but fair to ignore the little blighter. That in itself may sort the issue. let us know how u get on Boomstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turk101 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Hi Mike, Bring back the memories of when Snoop was little. He would whine all night for the attention. I put an old tshirt that i had been wearing and it helped a bit,(comfort) Also they say having a bit of music or radio on in the background helps (never actually tried it though). With regards to the main point, soiling in his crate, now I was discussing this with the mrs, because i could'nt remember what we did, he was excellent in the sense of been house trained from very litle. (probably just lucky) But this is what we did, we left the crate door open at night and had newspaper at the garden door he soon got the hang of it. after a while we removed the paper and he started to scratch at the door, or seek attention by whining, let him out job done. It probably helped that i worked nights as well hope this has helped. turk101 ps: it will all be well worth it in the end, the first couple of years are the hardest, but stick at it you will have a friend for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Really appreciate the further input. Good to hear from you Mehmet! By way of update; he went through to 05:00 last night, so quite an improvement on the night before, let him out and he done the biz then straight back in until 08:00. Fingers crossed that this trend continues Must admit, we started feeding him in the crate but he made so much mess that we moved the bowls into another part of the utility room. Could well be worth starting that again as he's probably a little more refined with his eating now... Clean the crate mainly with Dettol, also use the simple solution stain and odour stuff. We played it by the book for the first 3 weeks and let him fuss through the night but it was seriously affecting our sleep. I tried the t-shirt thingy and he, err, crapped on it To be honest I think he's got the gig with the need for us to sleep and for him to not fuss as the only time he's noisy recently is that 03:30 to 04:30 slot when he needs to go (apart from when we take liberties and try to get a lie in) Not tried the open crate door approach at night, mainly because if we give him the full run of the utility room during the day he goes nuts (and nearly always soils --- even when he shouldn't need to be going) Plenty more food for thought there, will continue experimenting further. Best! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) We played it by the book for the first 3 weeks and let him fuss through the night but it was seriously affecting our sleep. To be honest I think he's got the gig with the need for us to sleep and for him to not fuss as the only time he's noisy recently is that 03:30 to 04:30 slot when he needs to go (apart from when we take liberties and try to get a lie in) The clever ****** has got you mate! You shouldn't have to be waking up to let him out - he CAN hold it. Im sure he has 'got the gig' and has created some weird dog superstition in his head that if he waits til 3 am and the whines his **** off he gets attention, and as a bonus he can take a dump too I suppose if your fine doing this then you have come to a working equilibrium, but I think you shouldn't have to alter your sleep cycle for dog toilet habits! I still say take the hardline - feed him in the cage, and leave him until you get up in the morning (no waking for him). Yes you may have a few accidents, but he will soon 'get the gig' And then you will get a lie in EDIT: ear plugs mate - then he can whine all he friggin' likes Edited March 10, 2009 by Boomstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I had a feeling you were going to say that He is smart, no doubt about that Got through to 05:30 Monday morning. Didn't get so much exercise yesterday and spent a fair bit of time in his crate (soiled it during the day) and ended up fussing at 03:00 this morning... Will keep persevering! ATB Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I had a feeling you were going to say that He is smart, no doubt about that ended up fussing at 03:00 this morning... Ignore him - sleep thru til morning- repeat My CONSERVATIVE predicition: Within a week he won't be howling so bad, within 2 he won't howl at all, within 3 he won't dump overnight. BUT ONLY IF YOU IGNORE HIM ENTIRELY OVERNIGHT I know it's heartbreaking/annoying to have a howling dog - but be his pack leader, not his **** wiper! Trust me you will thank me when this works Boomstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomo66 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Hi Raja watching this topic with interest, got a 8 week old gsp on sunday going with the cage training myself and boy can he whinge -howl- bark ! but i shut all doors to dampen the noise then left him till 6am.i'm determined to win this battle.Just a bit of wet vet bed this morning but that was probably just luck ! cheers tomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Hi Raja watching this topic with interest, got a 8 week old gsp on sunday going with the cage training myself and boy can he whinge -howl- bark ! but i shut all doors to dampen the noise then left him till 6am.i'm determined to win this battle.Just a bit of wet vet bed this morning but that was probably just luck ! cheers tomo you've started young - this is GOOD! Will be a bit rough for a while - he is very young - but guarantee it will get better. Hard for a dog this young to keep it in - religiously make him dump before bedtime!!!! He will get the hang of it soon enough i assure you Boomstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Tomo, You sound just like me but with a five week time lag Good luck! Let ours out at 03:00 this morning, did his ting, then came down at 06:15 to find he'd done another in his crate (first time in a week) - ho hum... Boom - Like I said, we ignored him overnight for 3 and a bit weeks without making any real progress. ATB Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Mike I would be looking at changing his food - it sounds like you are feeding him too much in an attempt to get some weight on him. Don't feed him more of what you are feeding him as its going through him (been there with an ESS - bag of bones, feed more = more poo but no more weight). What's the consistency of his poo? Hard or soft? Feed him something with a higher fat content - try different kibble with more meat and less bulking agent, it will be more expensive but generally you get what you pay for - or reduce the amount of his current food and add fat to it. If you are soaking the food you can add a slice of lard to each meal with boiling water and it will melt and soak into the food. And as has been said if he is noisy through the night you MUST leave him; he's in a crate and can do no harm to your house or himself so let him get on with it, you are creating a bad situation in rewarding his moaning with your presence. You might find that a change in diet which does result in him not pooing so much means he is less distressed through the night as he does not need out. ATB Willliam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Right mate - time for the big guns - try not putting water in his food.... For the first week, increasingly less water. By the second week, try for just a splash. Week 3 no water. (Make sure he has access to fresh water though!) And do this in combination with no going down at night! Earplugs if necessary. That should sort it out i reckon Hope this brings a solution! Boomstick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Appreciate the additional input chaps. William, The consistency of the majority of his stools are firm-ish. No probs with the runs as of yet. I'm in the process of switching him to the large breed version of the puppy beta as the expected adult weight of 25 to 32kg's puts them in that bracket. If this has no effect then I'll be looking to switch to Burns or Wagg. Cost (within reason) is not an issue. Thanks Boom - had thought about knocking it up a bit drier. Will give it a go too. I'm coming round to the conclusion that whilst letting him out to poo in the early hours did give us some noise respite and reduce the amount of clearing up in the morning, it may be proving short-lived as he is now exploiting this opportunity and not keeping quiet the rest of the time through the night. Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 assuming its normal pointer behaviour you're right to be concerned about letting him have his own way they are little ******* at whining when they don't get their own way. My gwp is the same will wine softly till she gets what she wants, fortunately I got her late at 16 weeks and have never had this problem she is the cleanest dog I've ever had even if you forget to let her out for long periods. I think food is the issue either quantity or feeding pattern, I'd be tempted to feed most in the morning and make the next meal smaller and only a token gesture in the evening. You need to stop it soon as otherwise you'll be getting up to let him out in the night for ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomo66 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 another night of whining howling barking but its early days yet and im managing to get my sleep in even if he doesn't !! only a small amount of poo this morning in the cage.Out at 5.45 and a big pee n poo straight away so i feel a bit of progress is been made.Got my boy on dry pro plan + bit of puppy meat to moisten it abit,all firm poo's + not too much quantity either. Raja defo think the way to go is to ignore him that was the advice i got from the dog owners i know.mine is getting his sleep in through the day thats probably why he's so vocal at night but this battle he's not going to win. Got pair of custom fit ear defenders comimg for shooting,if he gets louder they can be plan B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomo66 Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Hows your boy coming on raja ? had my boy 10 days so far and his crate training is coming on great,only soiled his cage twice since his arrival and the howling has reduced to 30mins at lock up and occasionally at around 5 am.Straight out in the morning and does both so i'm chuffed so far.Next hurdle is to get him out in the run/kennel during the day,hope the neighbours are ready Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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