the gibbon Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 does any one now what they are like?? Ary they any good in the day as a normal scope??? any info would be a good help because my brother wints one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Hi TG, I am not familiar with the NV rifle scopes but they work in the same principle as NV goggles, if used in daylight they burn out the PMT. The better option is an IR scope such as the ELCAN Specter IR. I have one of these and it is awesome. take a look at: http://www.atncorp.com/ThermalNightVision/.../ELCANSpecterIR There is some good information on this website about how NV systems work. I hope this helps. Regards Rimfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 (edited) Hi TG, I am not familiar with the NV rifle scopes but they work in the same principle as NV goggles, if used in daylight they burn out the PMT. The better option is an IR scope such as the ELCAN Specter IR. I have one of these and it is awesome. Hi, I don´t exactly know if you got one of these ELCAN Specter IR scopes but if you do you have to live in the States because these scopes are classified as military/law enforcement stuff. And they normally don´t get sold to the public. I don´t know how it is in the US but I don´t think even there you can get such a scope without some serious licence. So therefor I don´t see why we should talk about stuff "we, ordinary people" can´t get any hands on. This does not make sense. But you are right that if you use normal NV equipment in broad daylight you destroy the tube of the NV unit completely. Normally a cap with a tiny hole in the middle is provided with each NV equipment so the unit can be switched on in daylight for sighting in NV riflescopes or just for making sure the unit is working - but I would never recommend doing this (either there is too much light or too little light for any good image). How ever you can get day/night riflescopes where you take the NV unit off during daytime and putting it on again at night. There is also a cheap special NV camera you can buy that you can use during daytime (Weaver, I think) - but it is not a real NV unit like the rest of the NV stuff. I hope this gave you a small picture of the world. Cheers - Bolta Edited March 17, 2005 by BOLTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun-Sean Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 The better option is an IR scope such as the ELCAN Specter IR. I have one of these and it is awesome. take a look there not bad for $12995 which is roughly £7050 now if you got that sort of dough for scopes you got to much bloody money!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDJUDDA Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 The simple rule of thumb applies, you get what you pay for. The cheap end of the market is generally ****..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 19, 2005 Report Share Posted March 19, 2005 Hi Guys, I understand that this is a specialist item I was just pointing you to it for information. I have PM'd TG regarding this matter. I have one on loan as part of my job for evaluation purposes and it is brilliant. The down side is I have to give it back by the end of next week. For the record I can recommend it for night work. It is totally stealth and the image quality is superb but with a $12,000 price tag it ought to be. I will be sorry to see it go back but not half as grateful as the local bunny population! I agree with all that was said by Bolta about passive NV scopes. Regards to all Rimfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 Hi Rimfire, Still, it is very hard for me to believe you got and handle one of these scope. As I said before it is classified stuff and no ordinary people can get their hands on such stuff without it been very HOT. Alot of things can be found on the internet by just looking... I remember some years ago I tried to get information about thermal sights and thermal equipment - just information, BUT the door got closed quite quickly. And I don´t think things have change that much since. If Gen. 3 and Gen. "4" NV equipment is been classified as military stuff - you can bet that thermal equipment is under even more strictly control. Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 (edited) bolta,you can get gen3 stuff and supergen it starts at £950 for gen 3 if you pm me ill send you the fellas addy if your interested.ive just bought a gen2+ nv scope and its pretty good i must say . its all legal and above board in the uk but i believe the american military have gear that is a little more difficult to come by and they do have export restrictions on certain nv gear.i am by no means an expert on the issue i only know what ive picked up from t'internet Edited March 20, 2005 by mel b3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 Hi mel b3, I am quite aware that you can get European made Gen. 3 equipment. Myself have Gen. 3 NV equipment so that is not the issue here. But try to get you hands on US made Gen. 3 and especially Gen. 4 (which can not be exported from the US) equipment without an export licence - you will run into some serious trouble, mate. And as I have said before thermal equipment, especially sights, you can´t get your hands on either because they are even more classified than NV equipment. Even something like simple Laser Rangefinders and some riflescopes too can nowadays not be exported from the US without some form for export licence. By that I mean, after 9/11 things have been tighten really up. I know it because I have been there and tried it. Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 hi bolta yhpm mate hth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 Hi Bolta, I take it from your knowledge of what can and can't be exported from the US that you are a USA citizen? The reason I have access to one is because I work for a List X company that has a need to evaluate this type of equipment for use in military hardware applications. Regards Rimfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 Hi Rimfire, I don´t believe you. Because if you have access to such information you wouldn´t be on this board spreading more or less classified information. Something doesn´t add up here about this subject which you started. Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 how the hell is he lying? atn are advertising the sodding thing for sale? I know people with gen 3! even played with a heat seeker YEARS ago albeit its primary role was for locating personell in blacked out / smoke filled areas cheers Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 (edited) how the hell is he lying? atn are advertising the sodding thing for sale? I know people with gen 3! even played with a heat seeker YEARS ago albeit its primary role was for locating personell in blacked out / smoke filled areas cheers Keith Hi, That is right that ATN sells this equipment BUT it is in the States and not in UK. First of all why in earth are we talking about things that is very high in cost plus we ordinary people can not get our hands on such equipment ? This I don´t understand - are we living in the fantasy world here ? Me, I think this !!! Second, Rimfire would not bring such a subject up in a public forum, especially in an airgun section where it doesn´t belong (again, no one can afford it and not many people on this earth can get hold of such stuff - to me this looks like someone is trying to impress others and it does not work). And I am quite sure that if Rimfire really had access to such equipment and information he couldn´t be telling about it because of professional secrecy. Now he did and this is a very strong indication of that he is not telling the truth. Everytime people are doing this they will be caught because we other people on this forum is not stupid - or are we ? I can of course only speak for myself in this matter. Cheers - Bolta Edited March 21, 2005 by BOLTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 Hi Guys, Sorry for the delay in responding to Boltas last post but I have been in the US on business. The scope has gone back to the US Government after trials. The whole purpose of me bringing the matter up was in response to a post from a forum member who asked a question. I had an oportunity to answer it with some information on a relatively new product. Agreed it is expensive and not for general use. However, would you have known about the existance of an IR scope had it not been brought to your attention. This item and its information, after all, is available in the public domain. No, it is not classified and yes, it is available to users outside the USA. And yes it will do what my Company wants it to do and we intend to buy several of them to support our equipment. No it's not classified, and neither is what we produce. I had an opportunity to trial the equipment and I had it fitted to my Marlin rifle, not for part of the trial but out of personal curiosity as to whether it would be able to be used against ground game in a high IR background clutter environment. It may seem incredible to certain members of this forum, but it is my job and on rare occasions I do get to play with the odd exotic kit, also, some members may find it amazing but there are other countries around the world that manufacture and have access to specialist equipment other than the USA. It seems that I have upset someone by lying, or maybe exagerating claims to access to equipment. I will mention no names. Maybe people should have a more open opinion? Best regards to all Rimfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roblade Posted March 25, 2005 Report Share Posted March 25, 2005 bolta what the heck are you on? just because you personaly have a doubt as to the truth of a statment does not automaticaly make that statment a lie. even if rimfire is fibbing about his job, what does it matter? i for one am glad he brought this scope to my attention as i was unaware of its existance in any way shape or form and that i belive is the reason he said something about it! you say he might be breaking some form of secracy or classified information? well if you do you better warn the site that they are almost at the top of the list when you use google! go to google your self and type in the following ("thermal night vision" rifle) you may well be suprised at what you find! if something is so classified i dont think they would be putting a price tag next to a shopping bascket maybe they dont import to the UK but they certainly have no problem exporting them to other countries. how else are people meant to buy things in bulk unless they can get people like rimfire to test them out? sorry i didnt have anything constuctive to give the original post as i have no experiance with using any form of NV and i think as you use NV gen 3 bolta you could have given quiet a bit of info into this matter all the best ROB PS rimfire if you ever need any help in testing some of the more exotic items i would be more than happy to be a gofer for you ("gofer this gofer that" for those who xdont know what a gofer is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Hi, Well, if this thermal sight unit is not classified why in earth can we ordinary not buy such equipment completely free of any form for paperwork, both in UK and directly from the US This tells me clear that such equipment is CLASSIFIED and people working with such stuff should certainly know this. Just look at Soviet Bazaar website, there is a thermal viewer (not a sight) but in no way can this unit be exported without any form for licence !!! Normal Night Vision has come a long way and is more or less free but this do certainly not mean that thermal equipment is going the same way. I don´t believe that people don´t know that thermal equipment exist if they already know about night vision from the start. If you know one of these things you also know about the other thing. But still why bring such a subject up on in an airgun section ?? No one can afford it and can get their hands on it !!! Many of the airgunners can only afford Gen. 1 NV equipment and just going up to Gen. 2 NV will make many almost pass out. So tell me why are we talking about such equipment here, please tell me ? Again to me this seems very odd and I have very, very strong feeling that this Rimfire is coming with here is not true. It is more for impressing people and personally I don´t like such people because I want some real facts on the table instead. I can also easy have a look through a thermal device, all I have to do is going to military demostration and have a look but this would not make me able to buy such equipment freely on the market. Again, this whole discussion is giving me the feeling of that we are living in a fantasy world and such high performance equipment is completely out of reach for us ordinary people. Why don´t we talk about things that we can get our hands on instead ? This would certainly be more realistic !!! Cheers - Bolta Edited March 26, 2005 by BOLTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Again, this whole discussion is giving me the feeling of that we are living in a fantasy world and such high performance equipment is completely out of reach for us ordinary people. Why don´t we talk about things that we can get our hands on instead ? This would certainly be more realistic !!! why ? just because you may have to shell out 7or 8 grand! if its your hobby and you want a one and its easy to get, oh and of course you can afford it ? why not? I shelled out money on a 4x4 solely for the purpose of getting to my shoots so is that fantasy/extravagance? perhaps! if the likes of soviet bazzar uttings etc put a realistic price on night vision then fantasy may become normality Even better if people who have never TRULY used night vision would stop decrying gen 1 gear a lot more people would benefit from it? I have recently purchased a gen 1 atn aries 390 paladin superb bit of kit cost me £225, uttings want £625 bunnies dont know I am there yet all the "experts" rubbish gen 1 also hve a pns 4.5x56 which was good when you had practise and got used to it? again seen them new for 180 likes of S/bazaar want 320 plus Role on fantasy I say cos in a couple of years gen 3/4 and thermal will be affordable and the norm for most cheers Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Hi again, Some other things stroke me too regarding thermal sights. If we really could get our hands on such equipment Rimfire what are we going to use such equipment for anyway ?:) First of all, night hunting for game and "humans" is against the law. So rabbits, foxes etc. are the only things to hunt for - but even Gen. 1 NV sights will do the same job to a fraction of the cost of a thermal sight. So in this regard absolutely no need for thermal device to several thousand pounds. Yes, it is also true that such thermal sight can be used during daylight too but it still has a high price tag. So all of us hunters use a telescopic sight instead and this works fine for us. In fact, then it all comes down to it we will always prefer such ordinary clear optics where we can have alot of magnification too instead of such a thermal device. If you had such thermal sight on a rifle at night and met the local police don´t you think this could give some trouble too A civilian with such equipment What about target shooting at night ? Do you really think a thermal device would be able to compete with a top quality NV sight ? No, it won´t. Besides you are going to have a target which illuminates heat for make such sight work. So Rimfire what are you really gonna use such thermal sight for anyway Please, give us all a very good explanation for this. In this regard, is it not true that such equipment only belong on the modern battlefield and with special elite unit who is going to observe a target area ? I don´t think that we civilians have ANY USE for such equipment at all - is this not right ? If it is, again there is absolutely no need to bring such a subject up in an airgun section, is there ? Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 (edited) Hi kdubya, If you really think you just can go to the nearst shop and buy a thermal sight now or in a couple of years I better think you should try to obtain such a device right now. Then you will see for yourself that things can not just be done - just like that. Just try to order a simple Gen. 2 or Gen. 3 NV unit from the US - you will see how hard that is !!! Again, as I said over and over we are talking military classified stuff here. If anyone thinks they can easy get some of this equipment via export - then please be my guest and try ! It is quite right now there is no need for exporting US Gen. 3 equipment or higher to Europe because you can buy European made NV already here in Europe. Actually, meaning that this stuff is not classified as high as it used to be but I can tell you that some countries inside Europe still have restrictions on NV equipment. But thermal equipment are classified higher than NV equipment and this certainly also counts Europe too, not just USA. Just go to Soviet Bazaar website and see that none of their NV units need a export licence BUT their thermal viewer certainly does !!! Again, this shows clearly that thermal equipment is classified high. The price of thermal equipment will someday fall but actually thermal equipment have been longer on the market than the NV technology has. And the price has not fallen that much since. Simply because it is advanced technology and it is expensive to make. Cheers - Bolta Edited March 26, 2005 by BOLTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfire Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Well Bolta, I give up, you are obviously right as you seem to know more about it than I do. After all it is only my job and I guess you can do that better than I can. I suggest we leave this where it is. It has obviously been an interesting discussion for some people but you know better. I wish you all the best for the future in your narrow minded world. Regards Rimfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hi Rimfire, Yes, very strange indeed that I know more about this subject than you. Just like you say you ought to know more because you work with that kind of stuff everyday - where I do not. So very strange !!! But still you could answer my questions. It would certainly not hurt one bit. What are you going to use a thermal sight for anyway ? Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gibbon Posted March 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hay Bolta You need to calm down abit mate. The bloke was trying the share some info with outher people. If he was fibing he hase told me somthig i did not know so i dont mind eather way. Go and have a lie down befor you do some harm to yourself The Gibbon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gralloch Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Your job sounds great Rimfire - what do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOLTA Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Hi the gibbon, I am quite cool here because I am on the right side of this story. All I want to know is the truth and thats it. I am not trying to push things in a wrong direction, just to know the truth. If Rimfire really works with these things everyday he should be able to answer my questions fair and square. If he can not, well then my suspiciousness have been right all the way through this thread meaning that all he said was just to impress people with absolute no truth what so ever in it. I don´t know with you, folks ? Is this really the way you want it ? Because for me it certainly isn´t !!! Cheers - Bolta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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