Electric collars?

[pegleg31]

are they a good thing or a bad thing?

 

 

the reason im asking is that my 2 year old lab is now starting to run in,and ignore commands while hunting for dummies and game.I had a bad accident a number of years ago which nearly resulted in me losing my right leg from the knee down,which means im not able to get out to her fast enough.I'm not sure about the electric collar so i thought maybe some of you would be able to help

 

thanks for any reply,Russ

[pegleg31]

pictures of my leg and dog sorry if they need resizing.i dont know how to do it

 

 

 

 

 

[al4x]

absolutely brilliant if you use them right.

 

I'm a convert, my GWP did exactly the same very occasional deliberate deafness despite having learned all the commands and doing fine in enclosed spaces etc. The final straw for me was her bolting on rabbits at my other halfs mums house, would be ok except it was near a busy road so i couldn't afford it to happen. She wore it for a while and then I half let her bolt on the rabbits gave her a bleep on it then a low shock and stopped her dead. Since then I've shocked her probably 3-4 times and she is now on command on the bleep function if she even needs it. She will hold point on pheasants and deer and not run in and she spends most of her time off the lead on walks rather than being put on in woodland etc so i would even say her quality of life is better. Now I often leave the handset at home, you'll see immediate results and won't need to scold the dog at all and lets face it by the time you've got hold of them its too late to take any action whereas the collar you can pick them up on their behaviour immediately.

 

That said i've seen dogs shocked by people on shoots regularly and thats not on so really they're only as good as the operator

[pegleg31]

thanx alex,im not into heavy handed handling as she's a nervous dog around people.I got her at 11 month's,can't be certain but i think she had a bit of stick from the last owner.she's alot better with people now but i still can't and would'nt think of being heavy handed with her.Thats why im thinking of getting a collar,is there any certain brands to look out for?.I've noticed alot of cheap chinese ones on ebay but my gut feeling is to stay clear of these

[al4x]

I've borrowed my brothers PAC one and though not cheap they do seem about the best on the market

[casts_by_fly]

I too use one occasionally. Roxy gets the same disease of selective hearing some times. If she is on a lead or long rope she has 100% obedience. When she's off lead with nothing else around she's fine. But if there is game around or another dog she wants to go greet then she goes deaf. She has gotten better about dogs and if I catch her before she makes up her mind to go say hi, I can sit her or make her heel.

 

The e-collar is a tool like anything else. Used correctly, it can be a great way to reinforce training commands at a distance. It is not a teaching tool. If you decide to get one, get a good book on how to use one correctly. Put it on the dog for a few months and let it get used to the collar. I made that mistake with Roxy and she is collar smart now. When the collar is on, she has 100% obhedience. When the collar is off, she doesn't.

 

Thanks

Rick

[pegleg31]

thanks for the advice rick,if i do get one i'll be sure to let her wear it for sometime before using it

[new to the flock]

An old post about e collars for some new readers:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

E-collars, are not meant to be used as a punishment. They are meant to be used as a signal, the same as a clicker, whistle or a tap on the head for sending. Many of them have an audible signal only button on them for the dog. This is known as a praise button. I hate this argument, for e-collars have a bad reputation in general, this was created by people that did not know or understand what they were doing, and by inferiour units that were on the market years ago.

 

I would like you to consider a dog that was trained 2 years ago. This was a 9 month old lab bitch that was completely deaf. She had lost her hearing due to an accident. How do you take a dog that has no hearing and fabulous potential and turn her into a working retriever? By correctly using an electronic collar to que the dog. The collar stimulation, which is not meant to be painful, was used to que the dog the same as your whistle ques your dog. Consider the stimulation to by like a poke by a finger, a light poke will gain your attention with no pain. This bitch went on to become a first class working dog in the marsh and the uplands. In a not so distant past this dog would have been destroyed. Or destined to a non working life.

 

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying that every dog should be trained using one of these collars. I have many that have been trained on a flat collar only, however these are options for trainers and dogs when one method or another is not connecting with the animal. All children learn differantly, the same holds true for dogs. USED CORRECTLY these are not negative training tools.

 

It is true that we run with collars on our dogs overhere. Many of us will run with an e-collar, beeper collar, or tracking collar. I would like to see if I can clarify this some.

 

Tracking collars: used primarily on hounds.

We use hounds for rabbits, raccoons, coyottees, mountain lions,wild boar, and bears. On a rabbit you may loose your dog by a mile or so, not to hard to relocate. A coon you may run 2 to 4 miles with the wind blowing the wrong way or rough terrain, difficult to relocate. Many a coon hound has been lost this way, Running bears or cats you may run the same animal for an hour or 6 days. The longest recorded chase is by a Plott hound that ran a black bear for 5 days over 650 miles. Tracking collars save animals lives.

 

Beeper collars: used primarily on pointing dogs.

Last year I dropped one of my English Pointers down without putting his collar on. Did a bad thing, took my eyes off him for a couple of minutes while I watered the little boys tree. You guessed it he was on point, but with no beeper I did not know where. It took me 45 minutes to locate him. The farthest he was away from me at any given time during that 45 minutes was 65 yards. Beeper collars keep dogs from being left behind, or lost.

 

E-collars: used on all types of hunting dogs.

Join me out west for a horseback bird hunt on the plains, or for ptarmagin on the east coast in the barrens, and you will think that you are hunting the deaf lab disscussed earlier. Our dogs are allowed to run BIG. This is best explained by telling you we use binoculars alot. The dogs cannot hear you, but if you have to handle them you can with the praise button, signaling just as you would with a whistle. It is not uncommon to allow your dog out a mile to a mile and a half. If you want to locate birds in these areas you have to run big.

 

I hope this helps to explain what proper use means, and to let you see that when USED CORRECTLY these collars are very useful training tools designed to help your dog not punish it.

 

 

NTTF

[pegleg31]

thanks for your reply NTTF,with my knee the way it is do you think this will aid me in training my dog.Or is there other routes i could follow?

[new to the flock]

I think if you use it correctly, and dont just focus on the dogs neck while training meaning using the dogs rump and flank aswell then you will come out with a very well trained dog. The collar acts like an invisible leash and allows you to make the correction at the exact time the error occurs. I will try to get you some links to some good instructional dvds on collar training, as the most important thing for you is to understand the how and why and the methods before you look at using one.

 

NTTF

[pegleg31]

thanx again for your advice,i'm looking for the collar to help me and not to punish the dog.so the links would be of great help,thankyou

 

also do you know of certain makes to look out for?

[pegleg31]

here is a link to one i can find on ebay that looks half decent and at a sensible price,is it any good or are the more expensive models the ones to go for?

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/UK-LEGAL-REMOTE-TRAI...A1%7C240%3A1318

[new to the flock]

I am sorry but I am not familiar with the units that are available in the UK.

 

I personally use a SportDog SD200 and a Tri Tronics Uplander.

 

I will get the links for you on the dvds tonight and if you want to save on the shipping and import tax you can have them shipped to me and I will forward them on.

 

NTTF

[Traztaz]

Young sam is now on an E collar too, I must admit I am not using the tone function , purely the zap function, but at a very low levle, first voice, then whistle , then a zap..........maybe zap is a bad word , its more like buzz, have used it on myself too. I put the collar on him initilaaly for 24 hrs, then started al lowesl levle untill I had a reaction from the dog , a head shake , or a tilting of the head as I buzzed him , for field work I have raised this levle by 2 , he is on levle 4 on a collar that will go to 15. The response is amazing , its like being able to reach out and touch him at 30, 40 m. As soon as he hears the recall whistle now he comes tearing back.I had not thought mind you of the fact that maybe he will learn that I can only do this when he has that collar on , so I think some time each day ijn the collar is a good idea, how long is it ok to keep him in the collar, even with it turned off?

[pegleg31]

thanx NTTF might hold you to that

 

tartaz what device are you using?

[Traztaz]

I bought an innotec scout, and I have to say it really is a wonder tool, can also understand how these collars could get a bad press, if any old fool put one on their dog and whacked away at it you could do some serious damage!!It is a reminder, a bit like a pull on the lead, no more no less, not a boot in the *** every time you hit the button........................which by the way is very very seldome once the dog has experienced the fact that you can touch him no matter where he is!!A great tool if used correctly, but as I said I never conciderd the dog becoming collar knowall..............must try harder me!!I am no expert, but I do beleive in gental and rewarding training , not knocking the dog all about the place, which you could easily do with a collar without the guilt thing of actually having whiooped the dog with your own power, if you see what I mean.

 

Graet bit of kit but read up on it and be very slow and gentle in it's use.

[WGD]

Have a look here and give the guy a ring for any help.

 

http://www.dogtra.co.uk/

 

WGD

[Dunkield]

'When used properly' are the keywords throughout.

We have a PAC and used it, only ocasionally and only in the early days of training our dog (a recue dog that would run away and never come back)

If you think you need one, I can recommend the PAC.

[new to the flock]

Have a look at the links for a couple of good dvds.

 

http://www.gundogsonline.com/dog-training-...ioning-dvd.html

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/GUN-DOG:-ELECTRONIC-CO...418159005r15776

 

I would recommend that you get both of these dvds. The second one is a little older but covers alot of sound collar management and use techniques.

 

NTTF

[cracker]

'When used properly' are the keywords throughout.

 

Almost. But it's your perception of proper use that has to be determined. As Dan noted, the e-collar's an extended lead and also (chiefly) a means of communicating with your dog. The modern collar's not designed as a preventative or for punishment, but, yes, can be used as both and often is. Do so at your own peril, however, as you're likely to get a "collar-wise" dog such as the transplanted Yorkshireman's. Continuous stimulation from the collar is passe too, but many pointing dog trainers in the US continue to apply stimulation that way, too.

 

The correct method--and much less pressuring not to mention pain from where the dog sits--is momentary stimulation (also known as "nicking" a dog, but not same as one's being in the nick or somebody nicking my Cornish pasty). Plus, stimulation comes only when the dog makes a mistake, and needs a correction that is administered not directly by the collar, but via a command the dog will have learned in being trained up. This also presumes your dog has been collar-conditioned from a young age--again the correct way to work with an e-collar.

 

My dogs are all collar-trained but they never wear the collars whilst I am shooting or in the hide with them, much less in field trials, where collars are not allowed. Their only collar "wisdom" is the training that they've acquired through correct use of the collar.

 

MG

[pegleg31]

thanx for all the info,will defianately look at getting the second dvd.

 

as for the collar its as much to aid me as for training the dog.if i could get to the dog quick enough i wouldnt be considering the collar.what is a reasonable price to pay for a half decent collar?i work in the building trade as a joiner and work is hard to find at the moment,but i dont want this to get in the way of training my dog

[cracker]

Respectful of your circumstances, if sorry to hear of them, and yes, yours would be the situation where conventional collar training can be eschewed for your own needs.

 

The Dogtra site linked to above is a good bet, Dogtra's 200 model collar offers all the "power" any dog needs to be trained with, and also boasts a very good vibrating "tone" button that is such a good asset in training with the e-collar. The range isn't critical for you, but can say that I use the Dogtra 200 working my field trial retrievers, and I've noted it's good at 500 yards. Don't know about the UK, but in the US, it can be had for less than $200 (133 quid or thereabouts). eBay, new and with warranty, even less.

 

Good luck and much success training,

 

MG

[Al Downie]

Great to see some helpful advice from people with actual experience, rather than the usual hysterical outburst from people who don't have a clue. Last season I bought a Dogtra collar and it completely changed the relationship I have with my dog - it's been brilliant. A year ago I thought I'd never work my dog in the field, but just one week after getting the collar he was in the beating line at a local shoot, good as gold, and this weekend I'm planning to go out rough shooting with him - just me, the gun and the dog - it's like his graduation! And it's only been possible because of the collar.

 

I wrote a lengthy post about my experience with the collar on NOBs a while back - it might be helpful but I'm not sure if you'll be able to read it if you're not a member. If you can't see it and are interested, let me know and I'll email it to you rather than clog up the thread!

 

Electric collars - a personal experience

[Beechessam]

Great to see some helpful advice from people with actual experience, rather than the usual hysterical outburst from people who don't have a clue. Last season I bought a Dogtra collar and it completely changed the relationship I have with my dog - it's been brilliant. A year ago I thought I'd never work my dog in the field, but just one week after getting the collar he was in the beating line at a local shoot, good as gold, and this weekend I'm planning to go out rough shooting with him - just me, the gun and the dog - it's like his graduation! And it's only been possible because of the collar.

 

I wrote a lengthy post about my experience with the collar on NOBs a while back - it might be helpful but I'm not sure if you'll be able to read it if you're not a member. If you can't see it and are interested, let me know and I'll email it to you rather than clog up the thread!

 

Electric collars - a personal experience

 

I thought the only one who was hysterical was the author having read the post ,who having failed to stop his dog by beating and in desperation resorted to the collar.

 

They do have their uses and place in training when used correctly, but not as a mode of punishment.

 

Interesting you claim these people do not have a clue, what qualifies you to make this statement, and what do you know of their qualifications skills abilities and achievements?

[Al Downie]

I thought the only one who was hysterical was the author having read the post ,who having failed to stop his dog by beating and in desperation resorted to the collar.

//

Interesting you claim these people do not have a clue, what qualifies you to make this statement, and what do you know of their qualifications skills abilities and achievements?

 

 

There was nothing hysterical or desperate in my decision to the collar, and if you really read the post I can't guess where you picked that up from. In my experience, the people who have most to say about collars are people who have no experience of their proper use, and no knowledge of the dogs or the handlers for whom they have been very helpful. I don't doubt that many anti-collar critics have been witness to some cruel misuse of the collar, and I've heard some terrible stories, but to condemn collars for that reason alone is like condemning shoes because some people kick their dogs with them. Some other people say that they've tried the collar on their hand and would never inflict that pain on a dog. Yet every weekend they encourage their dog to run headlong into brambles! I also tried the collar on my hand, and could not endure the level which my dog doesn't even notice - dogs have a very different threshold to discomfort than humans.

 

Without knowing the dog and the handler in question, I don't think even the most skilled or 'qualified' person could possibly feel able to pass judgement or condemn the choice to use an electric collar as a training aid.