ditchman Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 aaahhhhh!! but what did you put into those dogs Ditchman,for them to serve you so well, that is the point here. I have over the years seen maniac dogs of all breeds and creeds and you only had to observe the owners for 30 seconds. It takes a huge amount of time and patience to make a dog what you want it to be and many just don't get it, to the detriment of the dog .... I bet you all know their names ...the dogs I mean, echoing down the game strip :-( i wont bore everybody ...so i will keep it short... im no dog trainer/trialer/handler i ran 6 dogs over 20 years always used 2 dogs one cross breed one pure bred picked up twice a week thro the season when i got a new dog...i always exersised it on its own...and over a few weeks i found out what it was good at and what it was useless at.....so i concentrated on bringing out what was good and disregarded the poor.............then i would pair a sprocker with a pure bred lab....with a hard hunting trait out of the lafette tolley line.....it generally worked out that i could control the labs at distance and used the spanners at medium and close in......... at the shoots i stood behind the picker uppers with their bang fetch dogs and search out the pricked stuff.....a days picking up would ammount to maybe 6-12 birds picked....but those birds were the ones that really made the guns happy.... i never had the intelligence to train a dog to do what i wanted it to do....but i had the luxury of fitting a dog into a team the get what i needed........ hope this explains stuff regards ditch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 Confirms what I thought :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 I've used border collies for beating and picking to good effect. I had a German Shepherd bitch that would hunt, flush and retrieve (and guaranteed me plenty of space in the crowded beater's van ) But at the end of the day, a breed that has been specifically bred over generations for a specific purpose will usually in the same hands out perform a cross breed. The problem with crossing two breeds as a one off as they do with sprockers and the like is that you are just as likely to end up with the bad points of both breeds as the good points. Nobody knows what the end result will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 (edited) I've used border collies for beating and picking to good effect. I had a German Shepherd bitch that would hunt, flush and retrieve (and guaranteed me plenty of space in the crowded beater's van ) But at the end of the day, a breed that has been specifically bred over generations for a specific purpose will usually in the same hands out perform a cross breed. The problem with crossing two breeds as a one off as they do with sprockers and the like is that you are just as likely to end up with the bad points of both breeds as the good points. Nobody knows what the end result will be. the original idea of cross breeding ...was to cut out the resessive bad genes that had become dominant.....many of the bad traits in pure bred dogs...carrige ...yaw eyed...back general health...etc...can be got rid of in one fell swoop...crossing..................... but the problem now is , it is being done more for fashion than anything else...which im dead against........................... nothing wrong with german shepards as gun dogs....a lady in southern ireland bred GSD's for working and the gun...i believe her name was Mrs Barrington..... just slightly off a tangent now...but i believe im right in saying the first field trial spanial test was won by a dog that was many years later proved to be a spocker.....we all accept a black and white springer dont we ?...ask yourself where the colouring came from...? We all accept that the hereford cow is pure bread....HHmmmmm the white colouring and head came from the Longhorn...then later "polled" blood was introduced...........Friesian cattle....white head sometimes....white switch to the tail........yup ...Hereford blood................ if the kennel club was to do its job and police and adhere to the breed standards...(some of which need to be changed)...then we all would including the dogs benifit.... Edited December 27, 2016 by ditchman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 I wouldn't really call a sprocker a cross breed anyway, i think in the olden days the name applied to the size of the dog and not the breeding (so a small spaniel was called a cocker, large a springer no mater how they were bred) its only the last 50-100 years the breeds have been truely seperate. Althou quite topical at moment as 1 FT trainer has accused another of running sprockers in FT's and winning with them, he was calling for DNA testing of all FT dogs, and the accuser has been shunned and had some high profile judging roles taken off him Its a very different thing crossing 2 breeds with similar types (like 2 spaniels) to crossing dogs with different styles, say a lab to spaniels/*HPRs or even deer tracking hounds (often BMH's) which are all fairly common crosses i've seen. Yes they're is the odd decent dog that will come out off the mating but there will be a higher than average change of rubbish too. U just never know wot ur going to end up with. Even breeding 2 decent dogs of same breed does not guarantee u decent pups, know of 1 litter of cockers were great workers and a few FT'd yet the repeat mating 2 years later with same sire/dam the pups were no where near the same stanard and most of them went to homes that had pups of the 1st litter so training should off been the same. Any time u breed a litter it is a lottery but if u know ur breed and do ur homework the chances of producing decent pups are in ur favour but when crossing it is even more of a lottery U can argue that all dogs (and probably all farm stock wether cows, pigs or sheep) will have all originated from the same wild stock thousands of years ago so are all related and its only thousands of years of selective breeding hs got us our different breeds. The difference is in the old days they had set standards for wot they wanted to achieve (looks, size working ability, scent etc) any pup born the wrong colour or not meeting those standards would end up PTS and at any time any dog fell short was PTS too. Just breeding mongrals with not a lot of thought is not really the same. And if ur mongral is the best worker ever, wot do u do to breed off it? Back to a lab or spaniel? Then ur 3/4 of 1 breed. Would u not jus be better trying to improve the pure breds standard, as a springerdor really won't do anything that a pure lab or spaniel can't do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 Good post addresses a lot of issues....particuly your last line...........totally agree.............going back to the spocker issue...we down here will only accept a sprocker if it comes out of a springer bitch from a cocker dog....and it is one time only........if you cross a sprocker with a sprocker....they will start to revert to type...so it is only a one time cross........what it does acheive is a sound dog....but there wouldnt be the need to do this if the breeding was more controlled anyway ive said my piece and and read a lot of good replies..............and we are all looking at the same answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 Ur point about being a 1 time cross is quite a good one, A 1st cross tends to benefit from hybrid vigor to some extent and is clear off inherited conditions/illness's but when u get into 2/3rd gen crosses health is often poorer than for a poor bred dog. With farming a lot of stock can be cross bred to produce this vigour esp for meat production nowdays, but all the tups/bulls are always pure bred. I was told back in the 50's or so MAFF had the power tocomeon ur farms and inspect any bulls any cross bred would be PTS, ut that would be before bull beef become fashionable. So the males always had to be pure bred to give u some idea wot's going into the cows/calfs. Most farms that run a cross bred herd will also have a small breeding herd oer buy in pure females for there breeding stock, so again only the 1 gen Even in farming as well as recently dog breeding i think many have lost the stocksmans eye and now purely rely on paperwork or wot competions they've won. I know 1 spniel trainer who will get throu about 15 pups most years hoping 1 will make the grade and that seems to be about the normal, and there all FTCH/FTW breeding, so meant to be the best of the best and still not working. Even some of the modern trends inagriculture, very few pure Friesains left most are heavily into Holestien crosses going from a cow that milks less but can live for 20ish years producing milk/calves to 1 that produces loads of milk, has bad feet looks a bag of bones and is lucky to have 2 calves/lactations and lucky to live till 7 yrs old. Plenty of other older beef breeds are being bred far far bigger than they were ever meant to be and really not fit for purpose and need to be kept in sheds and feed concentrates/artifical feed to fatten them Same with ur top end show suffolk sheep 1 breeder usually lambs about now but the pedigree folk is all sponged to come in/lamb at same time and all need to be lambed by hand as lambs are so big over a 48hr period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 the original idea of cross breeding ...was to cut out the resessive bad genes that had become dominant.....many of the bad traits in pure bred dogs...carrige ...yaw eyed...back general health...etc...can be got rid of in one fell swoop...crossing..................... but the problem now is , it is being done more for fashion than anything else...which im dead against........................... They put two breeds together to make a catchy name. Nothing to do with genes and improving a breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) I know 1 spniel trainer who will get throu about 15 pups most years hoping 1 will make the grade and that seems to be about the normal, and there all FTCH/FTW breeding, so meant to be the best of the best and still not working. If anyone gets through 15 pups a year, and I don't know any spaniel trialler that does, then they have the time and money to be looking for a championship winner, not just a dog to compete with so the dogs moved on are not "not working" but they won't go on to beat the best of the best in competition so will go to less competitive trialling homes or shooting homes and will most likely live a long and useful life. Plenty of dogs ranging in conformation, speed and ability exist around the country and yet breeders with ordinary bitches still go to FTCH for a stud. Hardly the fault of the trialler, if demanded dictated springers and cockers be bigger, darker, stronger, whatever then that is what will come through. As for springadors, I think I said my bit on that years ago on this thread, but why tamper with breeding that can be refined within the breed? Two breeds for two different disciplines as far as I'm concerned and not worth the hassle or risk. Edited December 30, 2016 by WGD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albifrons Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Althou quite topical at moment as 1 FT trainer has accused another of running sprockers in FT's and winning with them, he was calling for DNA testing of all FT dogs, and the accuser has been shunned and had some high profile judging roles taken off him I wouldn't really call a sprocker a cross breed anyway, i think in the olden days the name applied to the size of the dog and not the breeding (so a small spaniel was called a cocker, large a springer no mater how they were bred) its only the last 50-100 years the breeds have been truely seperate. Althou quite topical at moment as 1 FT trainer has accused another of running sprockers in FT's and winning with them, he was calling for DNA testing of all FT dogs, and the accuser has been shunned and had some high profile judging roles taken off him Was wondering when this was going to show up on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 If anyone gets through 15 pups a year, and I don't know any spaniel trialler that does, then they have the time and money to be looking for a championship winner, not just a dog to compete with so the dogs moved on are not "not working" but they won't go on to beat the best of the best in competition so will go to less competitive trialling homes or shooting homes and will most likely live a long and useful life. Plenty of dogs ranging in conformation, speed and ability exist around the country and yet breeders with ordinary bitches still go to FTCH for a stud. Hardly the fault of the trialler, if demanded dictated springers and cockers be bigger, darker, stronger, whatever then that is what will come through. As for springadors, I think I said my bit on that years ago on this thread, but why tamper with breeding that can be refined within the breed? Two breeds for two different disciplines as far as I'm concerned and not worth the hassle or risk. Reading the extract i mibee worded it badly, about not working. I know 2 trainers that are going throu that ammount of pups most years, and 1 off them named quite a few others buying/bringing on 10+ pups a year, but ur right these boys are full time trainers looking to make dogs up at the very least and running/places in Championships. So not ur average run of the mill dogs. Ur right enough not the triallers fault, but the fashion in FT seems to filter down into working dogs (or the extra money for pups if sired by a FTCH) But i do think some of the more recent/new folk to trialling are breeding away from wot is wanted in the shooting field, even read an article in the summer where Ian openshaw was saying that too many people involved with trailling that don't shoot or have any idea about shooting is not a good thing esp if they become judges etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 But i do think some of the more recent/new folk to trialling are breeding away from wot is wanted in the shooting field, even read an article in the summer where Ian openshaw was saying that too many people involved with trailling that don't shoot or have any idea about shooting is not a good thing esp if they become judges etc Can't disagree with that, one ticket in a novice and it's producing pups from FTCH x FTAW, with the FTAW being a poor dog on a lucky day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) ^^ haha me too, albifrons, it was only a matter of time! Would love to be a fly on the wall at the champs if they come face to face over the next couple of days! Edited January 3, 2017 by bigbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albifrons Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 ^^ haha me too, albifrons, it was only a matter of time! Would love to be a fly on the wall at the champs if they come face to face over the next couple of days! I honestly think something will happen at the champs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird Posted January 4, 2017 Report Share Posted January 4, 2017 And me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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