Vectan AO

[UK fowler]

just had a quick skan on siarm they have two loads very close to this one with tecna-n one with M92S both classed as "baby magnums" both pushing 42grams of lead in a 23/4" case very close to 800bar

[Continental Shooter]

Chers Cook, appreciate that, will buy the book as well.

 

Forgot to reply to your enquiry about experimenting: well, just to give you a bit of background: where I come from, shooting is regulated by an infinity of external factors.very cold early mornings follwed by very worm hours of daylight are not unusual and so aren't the passing long birds reaching 40 mt.I use to carry at least 4 boxes loaded with S4 (warm, humid) , 4 loaded with GM3 (cold) and 4 with Tecna (big loads/ long distances)even though I knew I wouldn't have shot more than 10 shells.... but if birds were playing balls...

 

That's to say, you kneed to experiment to find the right asset for you and your gun, but everything goes to the proof house for tests before the usual tests and only loaded if safe and fit for the purposes.

 

just to back myself a bit I came to terms with Dipper's load:

 

Vetcan powder Homeloader 1985 33grains Ao GLwad 1/38 LEAD This is lightest load in 12g also got loads for 20g Dipper

 

if I'm not misteken the load suggested will translate in metrics as 2.10gr X 38gr and is harder then mine, but then I don't know naither the rigidity of the wad (and the pressure it generats/reduce) nor the prime power so, cannot really say!

 

Can someone confirm for me please?

 

Cheers the now,

 

F.

[Guest cookoff013]

Chers Cook, appreciate that, will buy the book as well.

 

Forgot to reply to your enquiry about experimenting: well, just to give you a bit of background: where I come from, shooting is regulated by an infinity of external factors.very cold early mornings follwed by very worm hours of daylight are not unusual and so aren't the passing long birds reaching 40 mt.I use to carry at least 4 boxes loaded with S4 (warm, humid) , 4 loaded with GM3 (cold) and 4 with Tecna (big loads/ long distances)even though I knew I wouldn't have shot more than 10 shells.... but if birds were playing balls...

 

That's to say, you kneed to experiment to find the right asset for you and your gun, but everything goes to the proof house for tests before the usual tests and only loaded if safe and fit for the purposes.just to back myself a bit I came to terms with Dipper's load:

 

 

 

if I'm not misteken the load suggested will translate in metrics as 2.10gr X 38gr and is harder then mine, but then I don't know naither the rigidity of the wad (and the pressure it generats/reduce) nor the prime power so, cannot really say!

 

Can someone confirm for me please?

 

Cheers the now,

 

F.

 

thats the best advice ever, it may also be beneficial to confirm with the proofhouse that the load is safe and conforms to CIP specifications. i`m not too concerned about the recoil, or speed limit. but am more concerned about pressure.

concerning the load above, it may be a fibre recipe, so lots more powder is added for a like for like speed. as A0 is a slow burner, adding small ammounts is going to do very little. hence the bigger charge.

[Guest cookoff013]

just to add to this thread,

 

the proof requirement for steel shot and lead are different. the cip document is for standard lead loads. they havent updated the document for steel loads.

 

max service pressure (the maximum pressure a lead shotgun cartridge can produce, for 12gauge is 740bar)

 

however for steel shot the proof is for standard and high performance.

both have there maximum pressure, and guns must be proofed to.

 

normall steel cartridge, 740bar.

high performance steel cartridge from 70mm up to 89mm 1050bar. (a 70mm cartridge with a 1050bar proofing !)

 

The critical rule is that Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930bar)

 

High Performance Steel should be fired only through guns that have passed Steel Shot proof. These guns should be proved to at least 1320 bar, be stamped with "Steel Shot" and a have a Fleur de Lys proof mark to prove it).

 

this information is taken from the basc website..

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/search-website.cfm

 

very interesting classifications, also the choke size selection for steel shot has come under some discussion by a few bodies.

 

cip say, no more than 1/2 choke for all steel.

british proof authoritys say a maximum of 1/4 choke.

 

does that clear up the situation or confuse it?

[Guest cookoff013]

nb, use tecna, faster speeds lower pressures.

[Continental Shooter]

Hi Cook,

 

I do use Tecna or better said, i did use Tecna as the guy I use to buy it from said it's now nearly impossible to get.

 

And I am perfectly fine with chockes and steel, don't know enlough about them so, keep on the safest side

 

Not sure what's the difference between the continent and the UK but there seems to be a conceptual discrepancy between how you intend reloading and how we intend it.

 

See, back home there is a competition that runs yearly for private to see who loads the best cartridge (contract might be won and big international sponsors are there too)so, experimentation is key. here there doesn't seem to be as much attention to details(no offense here, just a raw feeling.

 

Also, it seems that you have 2 proofing houses in the whole of UK whereas back home everyone gun shop has one, this make me things that loads must be divulged on the safest possible way to avoid accidents hence why you're so in line with these parameters. But I showed that even brand loads do not follow these parameters for their special loads just because.....they won't work.

 

For loads of 34g and above I wouldn't wanna shoot a cartridge that generates 740bar (or below)beacuse is a waste of money and lead.

That pressure wouldn't kill a songbird at 35 mt if generated with more than 34gr loads. I believe that a high start pressure transfers more kinetic energy to the pellets, which is what really kills birds hence why heavy loads have high pressure (unless designed to have low pressures but other factors come into play then).

 

I had test run aginst jelly blocks (to check penetration) and can say that pellet's energy (bigger pellets) is directly proportional to the pressure, viceversa, smaller loads with finer pellets seems better with higher speed and lower pressure.

 

Also, all barrels and gun produced in the continent from say mid 80s are tested for at least 1050bar which will make any load below the 900bar mark safe. That's not to say you have to load always to 900 bar, but if you need special loads (i.e for long range shooting), then you're safe within 800 - 850 marks regardles.

 

as you said: normall steel cartridge, 740bar. high performance steel cartridge from 70mm up to 89mm 1050bar. (a 70mm cartridge with a 1050bar proofing !)

pressure wise what would be the difference between a 70mm shell loaded with lead and one load with steel? none!

 

Actually lead is better because under pressure it deformates faster than steel and can adjust the pellets wall in the bar much faster than steel (hence why steel needs higher proofing) so, that, in part confirms lads to a certain pressure are safe.

 

When proofing thing (anything from engines to barrels)there is a certain degree of tollerance to be taken into account: proofed for 1050bar doesn't necessarily mean the barrel will blow up over that pressure, it's just a safe mark.

 

I've always been thought that books are great for ballistic principles but, once you've learnt the principles and you know a specific powder, you can go and experment because you know the safety. Tehere is an infinity of things you an change, have different pressures but still be safe for instance look at the loads below, each prime can give up to 20bar pressure on it's own, depending on powder, each can generate up to 100bar in different combinations...

12/76 plastic 615/cx1000/686 1,90/2,00 48/50 star

12/76 plastic 684/cx50/615/cx1000 1,90/2,00 51/52 star

 

with these (all above 800bar as advised by NSI you can try as much as you like and still be very safe but that doesn't mean you can't go over these receips.

 

Thanks,

 

F.

One last thing just coz you mention Tecna and I'm not sure if you are aware of: but NSI changed the recipes and the batch from 2009 less progressive and, therefore, loads on books prior to 2009 are not adequate.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

F.

[Continental Shooter]

One more thing, my loads are all proofed and checked and deemed safe in several proofing house across Italy so, I stand by that.

 

Also, just loaded 50 sells with 800X (2 receips)in 20 bore which are going to the field test tomorrow and to Birmingham next week or so after I've checked penetration, spread and effect on real quarry.

[Guest cookoff013]

pressure has very little to do with speed, which is often mistaken.

vectan AS and A1 can both be used to shoot 1oz of shot. one does it at high pressure the other at very low pressure.

 

pressure has no bearing on the "killing abillity". shotsize selection does. i`ve shot 4s at 1000fps and at 400bar. they do just fine.

 

big cartridges, use slow burning powder, slow burning powder needs above "average" pressure to burn right.

 

i agree that a cartridge loaded with steel or lead should have the same pressure rating. saami does, cip doesnt.

[Bfrog]

Lots of interesting comments.

I have claygame load for old AO but it uses a uniwad or a T42.

Is there a modern equivalent of these wads, or could it be made up with a fiber wad?

I have two guns proofed to 1200bar, but I would like to keep pressure to a sensible level.

I don't know enough to start playing with loads myself and I have a desire to keep my fingers, hands, eyesight, intact.

Any ideas?