DRTaylor

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Mudpatten, All you seem to suggest is that unless we implement an antiquated and expensive system, democracy will be lost. You then equate this with representation of wildfowling, I do not see the direct link. To me this implies that you are willing to become protectionist about your own sport at the expense of others, why should stalkers suffer for example? Are you happy to suggest that this system be set up for every field sport or would it be a mixed forum? This is the reason the CA will not copy the BASC structure, it may work for individual interests, but it is completely unworkable for multiple sports. As BASC is finding now with its drive towards driven shooting (it's latest advert doesn’t even have a 'folwer in it). Are you willing to fund the equivalent structure for all shooting sports? Members of any organisation have the ultimate in democracy: they can leave. Like a company to its shareholders, this makes the organisation responsible to the members. This is also the reason why having several organisations in one area is necessary - if people do not like the actions of one, they can join the other without the risk of their sport being unrepresented. BASC, CA, NGO, CPSA, NRA, NRSA, we all have common ground and could lose members to each other if they don't like the decisions being made, we therefore all try to cater to our members needs. Alternatives prevent a monopoly position and ultimately, the our sport being flushed down the pan by the decisions of a few. David

MC - the only question I can see of yours is: If the evidence is there to show that lead shot in the water causes harm to wildfowl why is it that you can shoot pheasants with lead which fly over a pond? As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the choice of legislation creates this situation, not evidence or common sense. If this is the question you were referring to, I apologise, I thought it was rhetorical. Mudpatten As I said, we have no ambition to replace the BASC structure. The CA currently has a National network of county committees for this very purpose. Many committee members are BASC members, and I know of at least one BASC employee who sits on a county committee. If you are a member and wish to join your local committee, I will be happy to provide you with the Chairman’s details. I believe this addresses both points. Anser2 I plan to work on your suggestion by producing these figures and making them available. It is a question that I have been asked before, and I think it it’s only fair for the shooting members of the Alliance to know these figures. However, as you can probably appreciate, I don’t have all of these numbers directly to hand. David

This has turned out to be in interesting and frank discussion which seems to have taken its own course. Nevertheless, I do actually value everything that has been said, positive and negative. I seem to have been slated for not answering questions, but I every question that has been posed has been answered surely? If there is anything outstanding, please say... David

I take it by this that you mean, "I want to put an end to mud sliging, but before I do, here is one last handful of the brown stuff in the direction of the CA. Now come try and defend yourself without appearing to sling mud" For everyones' sanity, I'll let you have the last throw. Otherwise marketing to exiting members will be become more than just a mistype

Thanks for all your comments, in response to the outstanding questions: Mudpatten. I do not want to leave anyone out in the cold, nor would i like to leave any part of shooting out in the cold. My comment was made in respect to the fact that we are in no way trying to make ourselves a carbon copy of BASC, not to be un democratic. I have reserved you a chair on the committee. DavidBASC. Regarding the £15 deals, that must have been over 5 years ago now and well before my time as an employee. National Shooting Week – I am running this for the first time this year and have seen many areas where it can be improved. As far as advertising goes , we currently provide £10,000 to local ranges and clubs to advertise at the local level, the CA deals with the National Level. Although the wheels have been set in motion this year, I hope to develop this as the years go by. Point taken regarding Update - ex-Shooting Times editors can be quite stubburn sometimes Glenshooter – As I have said, the CA is not anti fox shooting and I myself have fox on my certificate. It should be the choice of the landowner as to how they wish foxes to be controlled on their land. Thanks, David

Good morning David, Looks like you’ve already gone to the trouble of answering the questions for me. As others have said, this thread was supposed to be about what the Alliance can offer shooting people, but you keep turning it into a BASC promotion exercise. However, I suppose that is what you are employed to do. So, if I may add: 1. I don’t understand where you are going with this question, are you further trying to suggest (in addition to previous posts) that we should divide shooting up into its constituent’s parts and defend them individually? Or do you think that having more than one voice actually helps. 2. No I do not accept that at all and all you are trying to do by asking this question is belittle the CA. Recent history has shown that there can be difference of opinion even within the organisations – Raised laying pens is a prime example. Which is why I see the irony in the latest BASC “Buy British” campaign when you effectively lobbied to have game farming sent overseas. 3. As I have said, we are not specifically targeting BASC members; the same cannot be said after BASC advertising campaign at the Game Fair last year.... David

Webber – my apologies, you did ask this question and I didn’t answer it, and please don’t think I was avoiding it. To answer your question, there is myself and Graham downing who deal exclusively with shooting matters. We are backed up by Rob who is now Deputy Chief Executive. We have a team of four in the political and policy department who devote a large proportion of their time to shooting matters, and the same again applies to the two in the media team. We also have dedicated members of staff for Game to Eat and Events. This tight team means that although we remain busy, there is no redundancy, idleness or wasted resources in the office. I hope this answers your question. David

I think a few of the comments may have been on another thread, but I think if they are consolidated here, then it will prevent that thread from going off topic. Firstly, the CA is not trying to attract BASC members, we are looking for new members who haven’t yet joined an organisation. The latest statistics from the HAC show that there are a lot of shotgun certificates in circulation, and if you add up all of the members of all the shooting organisations (ignoring the fact that some are members of both), you don’t even get close to that figure. That means a lot of people have guns, but are leaving it to the minority to finance their representation. Mudpattern – in terms of services to wildfowlers, we are not in any way trying to emulate the structures that BASC have, we are different organisations. The Countryside Alliance currently offers lobbying and campaigning combined with firearms and legal advice. Graham Downing is hired as a consultant to the Alliance and gives advice on a range of subjects. We also have legal advice from our lawyers. However, we are wanting to work with our members and are happy to provide additional services if members demand it. Anser2 – in the past, the BFSS concentrated a lot more on shooting. Since the merge into the Countryside Alliance and the development of the hunting act, a lot of effort was put into hunting. This is not to say that nothing was done for shooting. However, it was noted that the Alliance needed to put more resources into shooting, hence this thread. I take your point on board about accountability and transparency, others have mentioned it to me before, and I will work with this in mind. MC – I’m not ignoring your questions. Lead wasn’t banned for wildfowl as such. The government ratified the AEWA in 1999. The concern of the agreement was waterfowl ingesting spent lead shot from wetlands. In England and Wales, the government decided to have a species specific ban, whilst Scotland and much of Europe took a more practical view and made the ban area specific. Hence the situation in England where you can shoot a pheasant over water, but not a duck over land, which does nothing for the concerns of original agreement.

MC - If it will make you feel any better, no we are not currently funding any research. Why? Because at the moment the group is in risk assessment phase and therefore only looking into the key risks. There is no point rushing off and spending thousands of pounds on research until we know what (or even if) these key risks are. Bakerboy, you have a good point. I will monitor this thread for updates.

David, as you well know, if you claim through the BASC policy and you are insured twice, the insurers will search for other insurances and battle it out between themselves to see who pays. In the end, it’s not about paying out, it’s about who pays what. I’ll speak to the membership department about the script. What proportion of income is spent on shooting? Membership income is divided between the political, media and campaigns. Yes, these teams also work on other areas such and Hunting and rural issues, but that is generally why many people join the Alliance, because they are affected by more than just shooting. Any money donated to the shooting campaign (badge sales etc...) then 100% gets spent on the shooting campaign. I don’t quite follow your logic here. If you followed your logic even further, what percentage of wildfowlers money is spent on the deerstalking department at BASC, or on the trade section? Taken to the logical conclusion, we would have an organisation for wildfowling, one for pigeon shooting, one for stalking, one for driven shooting..... This thinking is self destructive and not doing anyone any favours. You claim to be on the front line when it comes to politics, but how much does it cost the BASC member every time one of your team visits Westminster? For anyone at the Alliance, it’s a £2.30 round trip on the bus, which is why members of our political team spend a large proportion of their time where the action is. On the subject of advice on firearms, we are also able to dispense that too. I have fielded many questions so far in my time at the Alliance. If we don’t have the answer in house, we are able to get the advice from an advisor, which keeps overall costs to a minimum. I think this topic should get back to original post....

OCD - I don't want to sound like a new government blaming everything on the previous administration, but this was before my time. I do feel that response was wrong and did damage to the CA's reputation with shooting people. However, even in an absence of a ban, I think it is naive to think that all foxes can be controlled by hunts. There are many foxes, and hunts cannot cover all land at all times, therefore shooting is not just alternative but an integral part of fox population management. As for coursing and terrier work, I have volunteered for the Alliance for several years in the Eastern region. The events trailer has many large images of coursing and terrier men at work as part of the hunting campaign. Moreover, when it comes to court cases, we have helped defend several terrier men in the courts. I think it is when the national media address hunting; they tend to concentrate on fox hunting as that is what gets most people's backs up. In a similar way they also ignore other hunts such as harrier and beagle packs. I hope this answers your questions.

The CA is against a ban on lead ammunition. We don’t believe there is compelling UK evidence to warrant a ban, nor do we believe that a suitable alternative exists which matches lead on price and efficiency. We believe that a ban on lead would have severe implications not only for shooting, but also animal welfare and crop protection. Despite being initially excluded from the group, the CA fought for a place on the Lead Ammunition Group to defend lead shot in that group. A subgroup of the LAG has been set up to look into the primary evidence available. As you are probably aware, the government has removed the secretariat from the group, implying that it is not currently considering the issue. However, we will continue to be a part of the group and defend lead.

In response to a request in another thread, I'm starting this one. As you may be aware (I put it on my introduction post - I admit these are hardly ever read), I'm the Shooting Campaigns Manager at the Countryside Alliance. I've only been in the post since October, but my job is focused on shooting and shooting alone. I think there are a few myths surrounding the Countryside Alliance about many things that we do and don't do, mainly because there has been little presence on online forums such as this. I hope to change that. So, let's get it all out, what are people's honest opinions of the Alliance? what do/don't you like? what do you think we should/should be doing? As many people here are members and many aren't, I'm sure you all have a questions, suggestions etc... I'm probably going to live to regret this but I'm pretty much starting this job from scratch, I plan build the shooting side to the needs of the members, not the Alliance. Because without members, there is no Alliance. I'll now retreat to a corner and await the onslaught. PS I promise to be honest and objective with everything I post, and not give a hard sell.

al4x agreed - i think we have gone a bit off topic here. MC - As far as foxes are concenred, I have no issue with them being shot. I shoot, I have fox on my certificate. I don't hunt but I do support the hunts. As for what I do, I'm not hired to advertise or raise funds - in the few months I have been here, I can give you a flavour of what I've been up to: I've been live on the BBC against Brian May over the Exmoor Emperor, taken journalists (including one from the Guradian) out stalking and driven shooting as part of Game -to - Eat, worked on the briefing of the MPs for the firearms debate, sat on the the comittees of the British Shooting Sports Council and Uplands Comittee, I'm currently organising National Shooting Week, written many columns and articles for the Sporting press and responses to the national press and I also answer day to day queries regarding certificates, law, permissions etc... I haven't done any fundraing yet New thread to follow.