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Thank you @Smokersmith @wymberley & @Cawdor118, my bad, yes it is 1/4 & 1/2, and I'll keep it at that then. Ah ******, was hoping I could partly blame inappropriate choking for my shoddy shooting (which is perhaps unconsciously what's going on with this whole thread for me! 😳🙄, no not really, I need to get more knowledgable on the subject)! Thanks @Stonepark for another nice post. Noted and understood and respect for your interest and knowledge in the subject 👍🏼. Do you work in the industry by the way?

Yes, 3/4 & 1/2, too much eh?

Oh and, I will get on a pattern plate. Looking to change my 20b o/u chokes out to 1/4 and 1/2 as I clean my guns later this afternoon after a day out yesterday. I know you were!

ha ha ha, indeed!

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻 yes consistency would be a nice to know. yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes. you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting. Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps. chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then? 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage! Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼.

Thank you everyone for all of your helpful comments. I now better understand the variables at play and am less confused 👍🏼.

ok of course so velocity = carried energy. So if you want to a clean crow kill at 60yrds aside from pointing it in the right direction a faster cart will help better. ok so choke is irrelevant to pattern reliability, in terms of both the quality / brand of choke tubes and the degree of choke?

Taken from ShootingUk.co.uk article here: "Speed isn’t everything in cartridge choice. Even with the fastest loads, the pellets are travelling at subsonic speeds only 20 feet or so from the muzzle. Here’s something to think about: For a target crossing at right angles to the shooting position at a speed of 40mph and 30 yards distance, the difference in lead required for two cartridges that performance wise are 100fps apart (say the difference between 1375fps and 1475fps) is less than three inches. When you think that your total pattern diameter is roughly 30 inches without taking into account the shot string effect, this is so small as to be virtually impossible to detect from the shooter’s point of view." So this article answers most of my questions, sorry to bother you all without finding this first! 🙄 However it does still leave me with the question of why pay ~£100/1000 more for a cartridge, other than for purely psychological reasons!?

Noted, so just find something that patterns reliably. So back to what's the pattern reliability difference between a cartridge that prices at £260/1000 vs £320/1000. And or is my gun's choke more important than cartridge choice (standard Beretta choke tubes - 3 notch, 1/2, bottom barrel (1st pull) and 2 notch, 3/4, top barrel (2nd pull))?

yes no worries, all the same anyway. I actually shoot a 20bore o/u Beretta Silver Pigeon for most of my stuff. But I have a 12bore side by side Joseph Lang gun that I love, have supposedly had fitted to me, but I'm not too confident about that (feels like stock been shortened too much, feels weird in comparison to my u/o). I occasionally crack the old game gun out, but mainly I'm talking about shooting through my 20bore Silver pidg and I'm using that as the main tool to get my shooting better with. soft shooting as in lower recoil do you mean? Re. the even pattern do you shoot / have you shot enough that you can just recognise this in your shooting, or do you actually pattern plate your cartridges?

Because I'm not happy with the quality of my shooting, so I'm trying to improve it, and to help that I'm trying to eliminate as many of the variables as possible. I accept that by far the biggest factor is my performance of course and not the equipment. I've got a shooting lesson booked, I've bought a skotkam so I can analyse my shooting (and as a fun toy, arrives next week can't wait!), have bought a membership at my local clay ground as commitment to regular shooting and I'd like to understand the cartridge variable better than I do so that I can be sure I'm not adding to any of my shooting difficulties by always shooting different cartridges all the time just because they're priced cheaper. No concerns on cartridge for those easy 20 yarders dropping into the decoy pattern, it's more the tougher flukey / faster 30-60 yarders which I'd like to connect more reliably with and kill not wing. If the answer is that I'll not notice a difference, then great I'll just buy whatever is cheaper/reasonably priced and job done, but if different cartridges will be affect my shooting (a bit) I'd rather eliminate the variable, try to stick with the same good appropriate quality cartridge, buy 1000s of the things and never think about it again.

I'm struggling to make a decision on cartridge product choice on anything other than branding, name, price and whether I had a previous good days shooting with the cartridge or not. Can someone help me understand the actual differences between brands cartridge products, e.g. Eley VIP game £309/1000 and Eley hi-flyer £274/1000. Currently I'd be tempted to just by the cheaper cartridge, but what is the actual difference? For context I shoot 25% Pigeon, 70% clay and 5% driven Pheasant, in terms of cartridge through gun volume of shooting and I try to get 8-15 days of shooting in per year. I'd just like to find a cartridge that I can trust, can stick with, fibre only and without having to spend days on a pattern plate which surely must have been done on the cartridges before anyway. I shoot 20 bore o/u most of the time and for the occasional day crack out the 12guage s/s game gun. From Eley's website: VIP Game 20bore: LOAD SHOT SIZE WADDING VELOCITY POWDER BRASS LENGTH CASE LENGTH 28 5, 6 fibre Muzzle Velocity 413 mps Muzzle Velocity 1356 fps PSB 3 16mm 67 mm 2 1/2" inches Hi-Flyer 20bore: LOAD SHOT SIZE WADDING VELOCITY POWDER BRASS LENGTH CASE LENGTH 28 5, 6 Fibre Muzzle Velocity 361 mps Muzzle Velocity 1186 fps CSB 2 8 70 mm 2 3/4 inches So does a higher price cartridge usually correlate with a higher quality I wonder? And is a general rule I guess you should stick with a cartridge with roughly the same velocity so as not to cause any lead adjustment?

x123 Kent Impact - Tungsten Matrix - 28gm x 5 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) x23 Eley Grand Prix HV - Bismouth - 32gm x 4 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) Lead x31 Eley High Flyer - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x24 Atkin Grant & Lang - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x9 assorted Game loads (10-20yrs old) £80, pick up in London E15 any time. Thank you

Hi Dan, I've still got these hidden in a cupboard in case you want them from me? I'm due to be travelling up to Grafham from London via the M11 this Friday. If you want them can I drop them off to you then? Thanks, James

Dan, afraid I've not got any plans to be in that neck of the woods any time soon, will be in touch if I am though. Until then, E15 London. Thanks

x123 Kent Impact - Tungsten Matrix - 28gm x 5 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) x23 Eley Grand Prix HV - Bismouth - 32gm x 4 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) Lead x31 Eley High Flyer - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x24 Atkin Grant & Lang - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x9 assorted Game loads (10-20yrs old) £80, pick up in London E15 any time. Thank you

I need to get shot of these, excuse the pun, anyone want them for £80? Pick up London E15.

Reduced, £125. Pick up E15 or AL6

Bump, still available. Thanks

Non Toxic x123 Kent Impact - Tungsten Matrix - 28gm x 5 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) x23 Eley Grand Prix HV - Bismouth - 32gm x 4 (perhaps 12 years old, all fine but a few of the cases discolouring) Lead x31 Eley High Flyer - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x24 Atkin Grant & Lang - 30gm x 6 (perhaps 6 years old) x9 assorted Game loads (10-20yrs old) £150, pick up in London E15 any time, or Welwyn, Herts on 11th Oct om or 12th Oct any time. Thankyou

Sorry folks, sold pending pick up and payment to Fizzbang... I'll delete this post once concluded. Thanks

675 x Eley Hi-Flyer - 12bore, 30gram, 6 shot, fibre wad. (~9yrs old, shot a box recently, they kill just fine) 125 x Lyevale, Pigeon Special - 12bore, 30gram, 6 shot, fibre wad. (~6yrs old) 50 x Eley Grand Prix - 30gram, 6 shot, fibre wad. (~14yrs old, not shot, but presume just fine) 50 x Atkin Grant & Lang - 12bore, 21gm, 8shot, fibre wad. (2yrs old, unsure who manufactures these) £180. (1000 Eley Hi-FLyers sell for £295 on Just Cartridges). Pick up with license only, from Welwyn, Hertfordshire.

Some birds taken very high from what I can see in these videos, seeing some of these shots puts my shooting to shame I think, even with the 20bore 26gm excuse!

Ha, great to see how they like to do things in other countries. The Spaniards do love an 'event' don't they, as per CharlieT's found excerpt, they all go on and have a party afterwards: "By the afternoon the fun moves to the streets of Etxalar with a verbena and the traditional draw for live pigeons and other gifts." Amazing seeing the live bird decoys in that 3rd posted video. Is live decoying legal in this country, I have a feeling not?

I've heard about the ways the Spanish 'hunt' Pigeons in the annual migrations and after some youtube searching I found this, is anyone able to explain what they're actually up to here? Anyone been on one of these events? High towers above the Pigeons pushing them down into valleys full of gun teams and nets? The plate throwing is interesting, I'll have to remember to pack some crockery in my decoy bag next time I'm out!: