ETO
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Posts posted by ETO
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I have just bought my first Bridge camera. £130 from Argos - Nikon L810 coolpix. It doesn't have view finder though, but I am more than happy with it.
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if i want to invite one of my dogs up onto my knee for a fuss . i will , its not be deal . if i want to get down on the floor and play fight with them i do . and i love the effection i get back .
there are 2 sorts of dog owners , those that think dogs are just tools and those that actually like the company of dogs.
give me dogs over people anyday
Completely agree!
My dogs are my companions first and foremost. And because they give me that - I give them the best food I can and exercise both their bodies and mind so I feel they are fulfilled to the best of my ability.
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You could do worse than JWB.
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ETO - interesting read , so whats your take on dog dominance .
what would you say are sure signs or dont you think it exsists.
in the wild there will or would always be dominance , a dog trying to climb the social ladder , not all dogs are alphas , some just follow , i just dont think we as humans recognise it that well.
My view is pretty much the same as Jean Donaldson's view.
I think we are too quick to label bad behaviours as dominant and think our dogs are going to take over the world but really we don't look at what it really is. For example; Louie will greet another dog with his tail and head held high - from a less experienced persons point of view that is dominant - he's trying to show the other dog who is boss. From my point of view, knowing what he has gone through (he's been attacked several times this year) he isn't confident and is trying to put on a front as a way of trying to hide that uncertainty from that other dog. Uncertainty is a weakness within any animal structure.
When I introduced Jack to our household, Louie would grumble and stand by me - he wasn't confident enough to deal with it on his own. My way of dealing with this was to walk away from them. A person who believes in dominance would have rolled him over and held him until he was still and stayed there without being held. This just puts more on you. And if I had done this rather than walking away - I would've had caused more tension between the two dogs than there was before. Within 3 days Jack was accepted and now they are happy with each other.
I have to admit, once upon a time I did believe in dominance and Caesar Millan's methods. I did use them on one of my dogs - Benjie. Now I have found our relationship tainted by those methods. And now I have watched his interactions it is clear he doesn't know how to behave and interact with other dogs. So now I am rectifying that I am finding our relationship strengthening and also that he is understanding how to interact with other dogs. I have worked with him for the past 4 years. And 4 years ago he would've gone up to another dog and basically start a fight, now he simply sniffs and comes away.
Within my "pack" all the dogs are equal. There are appeasement signals now and then; licking other dogs mouths, low bodies and rolling over. The pup still has her puppy licence so gets away with some ruder behaviours - such as paws on the shoulders of another - but only within my dogs. If she did it to one of my friends dogs - she'd be told off.
But anyway - my views are that dogs don't dominate humans - ever. We read behaviours wrongly and therefore we create a lot more behaviour problems than we would have if we understood how to read our dogs.
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Well I know a lot of you will know more than I do and will truly believe that the dominance theory exists... but it's outdated and wrong.
Dr L David Mech.
An internationally recognized wolf expert, a senior research scientist for the U.S. Department of the Interior's U.S. Geological Survey (since 1970), and an adjunct professor at the University of Minnesota in St. Paul. He has researched wolves since 1958 in places such as Minnesota, Canada, Italy, Alaska, Yellowstone National Park, and on Isle Royale.
From his research in wolves - we then transferred it to our pets - as Jean Donaldson explains below.
An extract from Jean Donaldson's "The Culture Clash"
The Dominance PanaceaThe other model that has been put forth as a quasi-justification for the use
of aversives in training is pack theory. Ever since the linear hierarchy was
postulated in wolves, dog people have gone cuckoo in their efforts to
explain every conceivable dog behavior and human-dog interaction in
terms of “dominance.” We really latched onto that one. It is a great example
of a successful meme. Dogs misbehave or are disobedient because they
haven’t been shown who’s boss. You must be the “alpha” in your “pack.”
Aside from amounting to yet another justification for aversives-oriented
training methods—the dog is supposedly staying up nights thinking up
ways to stage a coup so you’d better keep him in his place with plenty of
coercion—dominance has provided a panacea-like explanation for dog
behaviours.
For the owner, this simple explanation makes unnecessary the work of boning
up on a myriad of other topics, like how animals learn. Notions like dogs
rushing through doors ahead of their owners or pulling on leash to exert
dominance over their owners are too stupid for words. Some poor people have
it so backwards that they view appeasement behaviours such as jumping up to
lick or pawing as dominance displays and thus fair game for aversive training.
The dominance panacea is, once again, a case of leaping to a conclusion before
ruling out more obvious explanations. Dogs chew furniture because what else
could furniture possibly be for? They are disobedient because they have no idea
what is being asked of them, are undermotivated to comply, or something else
has won the behavioural gambit at that moment in time, like a fleeing squirrel.
Rank is not likely on their minds.
So, a separation has to be made between a dog behaving appeasingly and a dog
being under aversive control. If you apply continuous shock to an animal after
giving the recall cue, turn it off when the dog makes contact with you, and the
dog learns he can escape and later avoid the shock by coming as soon as you
give the cue, you have aversive control. You can do the same thing more
clumsily, and many do, by using strangle collars or rolled up newspapers. This
is not necessarily a dominance maneuver, however. How it impacts rank is up
for grabs. Big fallacy, this one.
Likewise, if a dog knows that he has a one in five chance for a reward if he
comes and that the great likelihood is he will be able to return to what he is
doing if he comes immediately, and will in fact lose a few minutes’ freedom if
he fails to comply, he’s also going to exhibit a strong recall. This is control
without aversives. What’s important here is not what brand of motivation you
use, avoidance or positive reinforcement, but the near total absence of bearing
this has on the whole question of dominance. When most people say they have
a dominance problem, usually they mean one of two things: they have a
compliance problem, or else the dog is biting or threatening them. It may very
well be in both cases that the dog’s self-perception is that he is dominant over
the owner. It could also be the case that the dog’s self-perception is he is
second-to-last in rank of all organic matter on the planet yet is still
undermotivated to comply and/or bites people. You could have a dog whose
self-perception is that he is very dominant yet is a world-class obedience dog
and never bites or wants to bite anyone.
If the problem is compliance, the dog can be trained to comply using operant
conditioning. This is the direct-access means to modifying behavior.
Usingconcepts like dominance to explain why a dog fails to come when called when
he has not been conditioned to do so and had the behavior proofed against
competing motivation is needlessly muddying the water. You can flip him on
his back all you want and he will still fail to come if he’s untrained and
unproofed. And, you can flip him on his back and hold him down all night
(and precede him through doorways) and he’s still going to bite you if you
push him past his bite threshold. There is a staggering lack of rigor and
parsimony in the dog world, and the popularity of dominance as explanation
is a prime example.
My favorite myth is going through doorways first. What silly person came up
with the notion that a dog would understand, let alone exert dominance, by
preceding his owner out the front door? When dogs are rushing through doors,
mustn’t we first rule out that they are trying to close distance between
themselves and whatever is out there, as quickly as possible, because they are
excited, because they are dogs, and because they have never been presented
with a reason not to?
Top Ten Behaviors Dog People Attribute to a Dominance Problem
1. Biting/aggression, especially towards family members
2. Pulling on leash
3. House-soiling, especially when accidents occur on beds
4. Chewing valuable owner possessions
5. Jumping up to greet and pawing
6. Failing to come when called
7. Begging at table
8. Going through doorways first
9. Sleeping on forbidden furniture
10. Food/laundry stealing
Whenever there’s this desperate grasp for “whywhywhy” a dog does
something, rather than being taken by a red herring like “pack theory,” first
rule out:
1. Because it’s being reinforced somewhere in the environment
2. Because no one ever made a case to do otherwise (i.e., why NOT?)
The dominance panacea is so out of proportion that entire schools of training
are based on the premise that if you can just exert adequate dominance over the
dog, everything else will fall into place. Not only does it mean that incredible
amounts of abuse are going to be perpetrated against any given dog, probably
exacerbating problems like unreliable recalls and biting, but the real issues, like
well-executed conditioning and the provision of an adequate environment, are
going to go unaddressed, resulting in a still-untrained dog, perpetuating the
pointless dominance program.
None of this is to say that dogs aren’t one of those species whose social life
appears to lend itself to beloved hierarchy constructs. But, they also see well at
night, and no one is proposing retinal surgery to address their non-compliance
or biting behavior. “Pack theory” is simply not the most elegant model for
explaining or, especially, for treating problems like disobedience, misbehavior
or aggression. People who use aversives to train with a dominance model in
mind would get a better result with less wear and tear on the dog by using
aversives with a more thorough understanding of learning theory, or, better yet,
forgoing aversives altogether and going with the other tools in the learning
theory tool box. The dominance concept is simply unnecessary.
You can read the entire book here:
http://codeazur.com....ultureClash.pdf
After you read this article - read the comments.
http://www.whole-dog...gs_20416-1.html
And a Grade A essay including links and quotes to plenty of sources that also discredit the dominance theory.
http://www.facebook....QBu_euYPzXXo0GX
So any of you changed your mind? Or do you still think I should watch my back as my three pooches, are comfortably laid on my sofa plotting to take over the world snoring their heads off as I type?
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Brilliant photos of an excellent little girl!
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Do you mean you change your lifestyle to suit the dog? I will do this to a certain degree and my dogs are part of the family but they have always been expected to change to suit the human part of the family as opposed to them changing to suit the dog - the only exemption to this is if the dog is not well or has an injury - even then my 2 labs have behaved admirably as I have seen my son and daughter climb on them when they are lying down on the grass and the dog's lick them until they fall off!
Regards,
Gixer
Not really as he doesn't actually live with me full time. He has a strong bond with my OH's autistic brother so when my OH is away at camp, his parents have the dog. When he's back we have him.
I've had to do lots of purpose training to work with his issues. For example - he is food/object possessive - so I've worked on this by first teaching him to get on the object he guards then teaching him off. Lots of reward for both. And also he barked a lot and wouldn't shut up regardless of the reason. So I taught him to speak and then taught him to be quiet. With his food guarding - that was easy, he loves going for a walk so if I had to get food off him I would bring a slip lead out and he'd happily trot away from it and I would say "Mine" when he came away. So now I can get to his bowl, say mine take it off him without a problem and he gets a reward for it. And I don't get bitten or warned anymore.
However I will stop now as this isn't my thread.
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this surprises me as in all my years of my life my parents or me have had dogs of all types and sizes and I have only once seen a dog that had growled (a little west highland terrier) if any dog bit me, my brother or anyone else in the house then my father would've sorted it out there and then - and this has always been my take on it with dogs too.
I have two labs and only once has one of them bitten a person (nipped) and that was my neighbour - his wife was in the garden speaking to my wife and he came walking up the driveway waving his arms and shouting (jokingly) at his wife - my dog ran towards him and growled and nipped his forearm until he stood still - a quality I have always been proud of her for as in my eyes she saw a threat to my wife and kids and protected her territory...
but i can't understand anyone tolerating thier own dog biting them...does it happen often?
Regards,
Gixer
He's not mine he's the OH's and he's a rescue and due to being taken in by people who have limited knowledge of dogs they've repeatedly ignored his warnings and gave him mixed signals due to believing in the dominance theory. So if he had been mine from the start - regardless of the rescue situation - he would never have bitten me as I wouldn't have given him mixed signals or ignored warnings. It makes him a little unpredictable with strangers but now he understands I get his signals and I don't give him mixed ones we get on completely fine.
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Cheer Aimee, I have heard it before with parrots being perched above eye level etc but I have never encountered a problem myself with rank problems within the household. I have to agree with you here as the owner and their training should decide the dogs rank.
It's not even a question of Rank. My dogs are dogs, I am a human. Dogs don't see us as the same species so why do we pretend we are by bringing in all the outdated alpha theory nonsense. Even the bloke who came up with it revoked his comments as in the wild there isn't alpha wolves - there is just the breeding pair and the non breeding wolves.
I don't see how dogs being allowed on the sofa or beds mean that they won't listen. Yes if your dog has a possessive manner - like one of mine does then you will have issues. But it doesn't mean he thinks he's higher up than me. I just taught him to jump up on command and jump off on command. And now I can get into bed without being bitten or having to force him off. He gets a reward for getting off too - win win situation.
I could go on but I'm not going too cos I'll just ramble
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More and more lately when out walking my Ellie , (Border Collie Bitch, 20 Months) I am encountering people who think I have a problem dog !
Couple of scenarios:
1. Massive boxer comes running over to her from 300 metres away. I call her back and take her ball off her and ask her to sit. She does so, by my side looking up at me. This dog circles us then lunges at her, she shakes as I keep asking her to leave it and wait. It lunges again, and thats it, she turns aggressive and chases it off. Bloke shouts "bloody hell mate you should get a muzzle for that thing" followed by the infamous "he only wants to play".
2. She is carrying a stick (she does that), dog runs over from 100 metres away and tries to take it off her, she growls quietly, then louder, then really loud, then spits it out and lunges at the other dog ( looks worse than it is). Next I get , you guessed it, the muzzle comment.
Ellie is perfectly trained, does absolutely everything I ask of her. I can't see why she is in the wrong compared to these other dogs who basically are not trained. She is getting blamed for the fact that other owners cannot call back or properly control their dogs.
Am I biased, or is that a fair statement ?
Wez.
TBH it sounds as if your dog is asking for space. You have to watch she doesn't practice this too often as she could do it if the dog is genuinely being friendly. Or she could do it at the wrong dog and end up in a worse state.
But other than that I don't think you have a problem dog, just one that prefers her space. I have one like it and I put him on lead and call out to other owners - that way I don't have to deal with him or their dog. And I can continue my walk in peace.
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sounds daft but letting the pup on the sofa can sometimes make a pup dominant it thinks its an equal or better than some of the family and can make it harder to train.I have seen this happen so not so daft after all.a.t.b. looks like a nice stamp of a dog.( STAMP for its name.)
Don't talk rubbish! Dogs don't dominate people. All mine are allowed on the sofas and beds and I have no problems.
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Hmm I'd want to call her something unique to go with that leg - which I did not see!
Is she your first Spaniel?
I think I'd call her Diz. Short for Dizzy - as thats what Spaniels are
Is she KC reg? I'd use something from her KC name if she is. My friend has a Cocker who's KC name has Grouse in it. I told her she should've called her Willow - cos of the Willow Grouse, but she ended up calling her Lilly.
You really want a one syllable name. My next dog which I am convinced is going to be a Cocker (Pennie was supposed to be a Chinese Crested
) Anyway I'm going to call the Cocker "Tick" short for Ticking time bomb How about Pip?
Or seeing as she's pretty much a Christmas pup Elf? LOL sorry I just watched that film
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Oh what a darling little thing. I love her snow nose - that eventually should colour in, but sometimes they keep the loss of pigment. Whats her name?
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Thanks guys - I try my best
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nice photo's and very healthy looking dogs.
the rabbit hole looks more like a fox earth or badgers set 
If there was anything there the other dogs would've been in on it too, it could've been though - I'm not certain what it was. Jessie likes to dig and not with her paws - she bites at soil funny little thing!
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My friend and I haven't walked together in a while and we had a lovely peaceful walk around part of Sherwood Forest today, dogs behaved perfectly and we had a good 3 hours ramble and nattering.
However my camera kept dying so I don't have many. The Collies are Jed and Jessie, the Wirehair is Flynn and then there is my Louie and Jack.
First Jessie did some rabbiting..
Had a bit of a play.
Got blown about
Posed on a log
Thanks for looking.
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Great stuff thanks for that will look into one for the future,Geoffrey and bungle my two have a few years left to go before retirement so im in no rush as of yet. Is the off button easy to find:-P. Cheers Albert.
Well apart from a couple of mad minutes mine sleep or potter about the house during the day. I've not took them out for a week because I'm suffering an ear and chest infection and they haven't torn the place up.
However Lou had a sneezing fit 20 minutes ago and Pen decided to repeatedly pounce on him and now she has her head stuck in a basketball that she'd previously popped and ripped a great hole in. They're characters!
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I quite like looking at pictures of your dogs,keep them coming. Im a springer man at the moment but would like a larger type next,springer cross lab could be the way forward. Whats their coat like is lab like or springer type. After somthing that can withstand the elements. One of mine has a thick coat and the other ones is terrible.
Mine are indoor so they're coats are slightly thinner than what they would be if kept out. But saying that - both of them have different coats. Lou - my eldest is slightly wirey but the soft type and only wirey along his spine. However his underbelly is thin so he gets a few cuts and scrapes but other than that he can work undergrowth just fine. I don't walk mine with coats and we go out in all weathers and all terrains they manage fine.
Pen's coat is more Labby. As is her tail, whereas Lou's is more springer - it hasn't got the otter look that Pen's has. They both go swimming in freezing water too and Lou is fine in the snow too. Pen hasn't had snow yet.
The one thing that lets them down is that they are basically a Springer in a lab coat - so the tail is an issue. Lou's is mashed up at the end where he keeps knocking it, but docking it would make him look stupid as he looks more like a lab.
But overall I'd never say no to another one. They have an off switch too - guess thats the lab side
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Very true but the dog offer came quicker than I expected and to be honest with you I have been the buy first, think later type my whole life but on the plus side I always join a forum and ask as many questions as I can
I see you have lots of experience with dogs so maybe you could offer your advice rather than telling me what I should have done
I admit I was rushed for time and my comment wasn't very useful but I see this too often that people just get pups without thinking about it.
I'd not bother with the crate to be honest, whilst I'm an advocate for using anything positive and modern - there's no point to crate training other than to keep the pup in one area. Mine sleep in a crate for the first few weeks to get them used to it for travelling etc. But when the accidents stop they can have free reign.
With toilet training take the pup out after every, meal, drink, play and sleep. I take my pups out every half an hour for the first week then up it to 45 minutes the next week and then work my way up. My waking/sleeping routine was never changed much either, I would keep the pups up till 11/12 - if they fell asleep before then, I would wake them up, toilet, play then toilet again, then bed. As my pups slept in my room - I would wake up when they woke me up and take them to the loo - regardless of time, then pop them back in their crate and go back to sleep. If they didn't settle I would bring them in my bed and found they did settle.
For food - skip puppy food, it's a con. If you find a decent branded dry/wet then there is no point to puppy food. Or you can opt for the raw - but this does take research - you can't just jump into it
Decent branded dry foods - that I would feed if I fed dry would be; Acana, Applaws, Fish4Dogs, Barking Heads and Taste of the wild. However they are the higher end of the scale. So the decent afforable brands I would feed are; Skinners Salmon and Potato, Skinners Duck and Rice or Autarky Duck/Salmon. I don't feed wet food but Nature Diet and Butchers Tripe are the ones I would feed if I did.
The rule of thumb with dry/wet foods are the less grains - the better! Grains cause all sorts of skin complaints and issues. Bakers in particular causes many behavioural issues as it's filled with E numbers that are banned in our own foods. They cause aggression and hyper problems.
Pups should be fed 4 times a day until 6 months old and roughly 4 hours between, 3 meals till 9 months and then I usually do 2 meals onwards. As for how much - I go on hand and eye - if the pup is skinny, feed a bit more, if plump, feed a little less.
As for keeping the household happy - just make sure everyone respects each other. Make sure everything is puppy proofed - if you don't want things chewed - don't leave them where they can be chewed.
I haven't kennelled dogs before but if you are going to, start feeding her in the kennel area at first, then when she's about 6 months feed her and start leaving her in there about 15 minutes longer each week. I wouldn't kennel a dog until a year old +. I would never kennel a dog before it was toilet trained anyway.
Hope this helps and if you want any advice on raw feeding just PM me
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They're Lab x Springers. The thing behind the lead is Louie's manhood.
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Erm not to be harsh or rude or anything - but shouldn't you have worked all this out BEFORE picking the pup up?
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I saw this new breed today. It has two heads and six legs.
I asked the pup to heel but Lou was in the way so instead of doing the normal thing and either squeezing between or being at the side she tried to jump him and ended up like this - I asked them to wait and there you have it.. 2 heads and 6 legs
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Bestwood Country Park
FAO Albert 888
in Dogs and Dog Training
Posted
Since you like them so much