Brocock Enigma

[mimic]

oh Mr Roblade Not wishing to high jack this post, but in defence of the stealth, I know some who have used them in the club I use in a comp and do better with them than there springer      . Would use mine as well now its running right but only one that the N.V. fits on without hitting the mag  :*)

The stealth is not a bad gun But its no match for the enigma and i will explain why..

 

For starters its Single shot, the next issue would be that the working presure of the bottle is only 200 bar wich the enigma is perfectly happy running at , even as high as 205 bar without any problems, And thirdly the enigma has another 4 inches of barrel to play with, Now i will grant that the stealth will do more shots, But the engima will beat it in terms of max energy and its ability to repeat fire 9 times.

 

The 4th point would be there is nothing stoping me carrying a budy botle and charge lead

 

For the sake of a few extra bucks its got be worth it.

 

But i do have to admit the Stealth is still a very nice gun............

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[roblade]

Mimic would you mind enlightening us as to the reason that a loger barrel is more useful?

 

and who told you the enigma had the potential for more power over the stealth?:o??? you been reading the comics again?LOL the stealth can get up to 80F/lbs, which as raf as im aware only one other rifle can match. (standard rifles that is without goingot silly money prices)

 

as for a whole 5bar of fill presure making a difference :o :o :o :o :o :o what more can i say

 

barrel length being a whole 4" longer, ok that might help with the shots per charge but wont make any other difference.

 

and carrying charge gear in the field, you dont do much pest control do you you would never need to carry any form of charge gear for any visit to the fields no matter what rifle you have unless your doing an over night visit or more than one days shoting.

 

ok so its single shot only, and im suprised you didnt say "but its getting a magazine system soon!" (been hearing that story for 3 years now PML)

 

Not once did you address the real problem the stealh has. comne back when you worked out what this problem might be LOL

 

and yes thank you 24joy i did shoot a better score with the stealth this month but we know why that was :o told you i shoot better without a coffee LOL Theres just somehting satisfying when a £200 stealth can beat a £1000 ripley :o

 

 

ROB :o

 

ps your still a mupet :o but have to say every time i read one of your posts its hard to stop laughing :o

[mimic]

Mimic would you mind enlightening us as to the reason that a loger barrel is more useful?

omg are you really that thick? Your telling me you dont understand the advantage of a longer barrel, and you call yourself experienced??

 

Ok for starters it makes better use of the power you have available meaning you will get a higher volocity for the same power as the shorter barrel, Like i cant beleive you couldnt already know this, it also increases acuracy and the ammount of spin put into the pellet

 

A longer barrel is just better in every way....

 

And regardless of what you Say an Extra 5 bar and 4" inches of barrel WILL make a diference even if only slight There will be a diference in power.

 

Dont get me wrong im not slagging down the Stealth I think its a bad *** little gun and i wouldnt mind owning one especialy at the price, But fact is fact

 

Even if that gun emptys its entire ressy into the barrel its still not gunner reach the same volocity as another gun Dumping that same ammount of presure + a lil bit more into a longer barrel Its just common sence..............

 

But dont take my work for it ,Im sure there mustbe plenty of people on here that can verify this for you.

 

As for getting the gun upto that power, All you have to do is let the dam presure out of the bottle , The restrictions are just on how much air it lets out, You take away these ristrictions and your putting exactly the same presure down the barrel as any other gun, Ok you may have to change more bits in some of them than others but the pricible is simple (let the air out) ,The power to drive is already there inside every pcp gun locked away inits tank at 200bar....

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

Are you sure you have that first part right Mimic. My understanding is that a PCP is designed in such a way that no matter what the barrel length, the valve determins how much pressure is required behind the pellet to reach a required ft/lb. So in a carbine you would require more air to get the same ft/lb but no difference in velocity over a standard length barrel.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[mimic]

Are you sure you have that first part right Mimic. My understanding is that a PCP is designed in such a way that no matter what the barrel length, the valve determins how much pressure is required behind the pellet to reach a required ft/lb. So in a carbine you would require more air to get the same ft/lb but no difference in velocity over a standard length barrel.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

If the gun is restricted to legal power then the barrel length makes no diference simply because you are still limited to 12 ftlbs the only diference it makes there is how much gas you use to get the 12 ftlbs it doesnt come into play untill you go FAC then the only restriction is on how fast you can get the pellet down the barrel

 

this comes down to presure, Barrel length , and pellet weight

 

Try to rememeber legal power means that every gun has to produce the same Max energy meaning what ever barrel u have your still limited to "legal power"

but with FAC your limitation is the above ^

 

The only diference a longer barrel makes at Legal power is the number of shots you get for the same ammount of gas but this inits selfs deomonstraits what im saying..

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

Thats a very good point and one I have overlooked. So for the sake of the conversation and based on that summise, 2 identical guns but one in carbine and the other of standard barrel length, the standard barrel will be able to produce a higher powered shot if wound to the max.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[mimic]

Thats a very good point and one I have overlooked. So for the sake of the conversation and based on that summise, 2 identical guns but one in carbine and the other of standard barrel length, the standard barrel will be able to produce a higher powered shot if wound to the max.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

yes exactly right

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[1 of 5]

A longer barrel is a necessity for high power outputs. It will not improve accuracy or affect rate of spin AT ALL. You only need a couple of inches of barrel to direct a pellet accurately. The time the air has to act on the pellet and accelerate it is important in determining power. There are only two guns off the shelf that'll hit 80 ft/lb and neither are the Stealth (ignoring specials). The Career and shing-sung (career with a rotary mag) are the only two I know of that'll hit such power levels. The stealth can be made to but not with the std length barrel. BUT - another important factor in power is how much air the valve will flow. The majority of airguns simply will not flow enough air no matter how hard the hammer hits the valve to make 80 ft/lb. Without making a completely new valve and porting arangement you will hit a ceiling well below 80. Unless you have access to sophisticated modelling software you'll have no idea of the relevant valve sizes and spring tensions to make not just 80 ft/lb but to make the gun consistent too. Pressure is largely irrelevant so long as you have enough - it's flow that's the limit as air only expands so fast in a limited space. The Brocock simply will not shift sufficient air to hit remotely near 80 ft/lb even with a yard of barrel.

 

A longer barrel has serious limitations for a hunter in that moving around in a hide or even just crawling along an uneven piece of ground can get impossible with a long gun. Also 4x4 use is awkward with anything other than a shorty.

 

If you want 80 ft/lb then buy a Career and scare all quarry away with the loudest crack you've ever heard as no silencer will tame such a beast. Also you'll find that they are not consistent over a charge by some margin at those levels so you'll hit far less.

 

I'll say it again for the hard of hearing - there is NOTHING you can shoot at 80 ft/lb that 30 - 35 will not do better. 80 ft/lb airguns are LOUD and INCONSISTENT. 30-35 ft/lbers are silenceable and consistent as well as having enough shot count to make a hunting trip a possibility. If you want to step up fron airgun quarry to Fox then buy a centrefire or at least a rimmy on HV ammo.

[mimic]

A longer barrel is a necessity for high power outputs. It will not improve accuracy or affect rate of spin AT ALL. You only need a couple of inches of barrel to direct a pellet accurately. The time the air has to act on the pellet and accelerate it is important in determining power. There are only two guns off the shelf that'll hit 80 ft/lb and neither are the Stealth (ignoring specials). The Career and shing-sung (career with a rotary mag) are the only two I know of that'll hit such power levels. The stealth can be made to but not with the std length barrel. BUT - another important factor in power is how much air the valve will flow. The majority of airguns simply will not flow enough air no matter how hard the hammer hits the valve to make 80 ft/lb. Without making a completely new valve and porting arangement you will hit a ceiling well below 80. Unless you have access to sophisticated modelling software you'll have no idea of the relevant valve sizes and spring tensions to make not just 80 ft/lb but to make the gun consistent too. Pressure is largely irrelevant so long as you have enough - it's flow that's the limit as air only expands so fast in a limited space. The Brocock simply will not shift sufficient air to hit remotely near 80 ft/lb even with a yard of barrel.

 

A longer barrel has serious limitations for a hunter in that moving around in a hide or even just crawling along an uneven piece of ground can get impossible with a long gun. Also 4x4 use is awkward with anything other than a shorty.

 

If you want 80 ft/lb then buy a Career and scare all quarry away with the loudest crack you've ever heard as no silencer will tame such a beast. Also you'll find that they are not consistent over a charge by some margin at those levels so you'll hit far less.

 

I'll say it again for the hard of hearing - there is NOTHING you can shoot at 80 ft/lb that 30 - 35 will not do better. 80 ft/lb airguns are LOUD and INCONSISTENT. 30-35 ft/lbers are silenceable and consistent as well as having enough shot count to make a hunting trip a possibility. If you want to step up fron airgun quarry to Fox then buy a centrefire or at least a rimmy on HV ammo.

I agree with most of the above, 'Valve apature sizes calculation' no your right i cant do that, But if you make the ports all HUGE (as big and as wide as you posibly can) but there is no point in going above 5.5mm the diamiter of the barrel at that point its more down to the hammer like you said you need a VERY powerfull hamer , You also need to remove the shot mesuring system so that the presure is released directly from the main PCP resy Im not saying there isnt alot of work involved, There certainly is. with most guns you will also have to uprate seels to hold and posibly triger mech to allow for the extra hammer power

 

I do agree with that power being wastefull, i have read that arround 25 to 30 is the most efecient power for an air rifle and probably best for general hunting?

 

The Brocock simply will not shift sufficient air to hit remotely near 80 ft/lb even with a yard of barrel. (quote: it will when im done with it )

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

I'd have to say that the very last of 1of5's comments makes the most sense. If you want 80ft/lb plus of power in a rifle why mess about with an air rifle. Go get a rimfire or centrefire. The .22LR is a superb bit of kit and can be made very quiet indeed. Its lighter and cheaper than an alternative air rifle and will provide a vast range of different shooting in comparison to an air rifle.

Rifles are designed for particular purposes, why try and make an air rifle perform like a sub sonic rimmy when the rimmy does a superior job in the first place. And then of course you can get them in Semi-auto as well.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[mimic]

I'd have to say that the very last of 1of5's comments makes the most sense. If you want 80ft/lb plus of power in a rifle why mess about with an air rifle. Go get a rimfire or centrefire. The .22LR is a superb bit of kit and can be made very quiet indeed. Its lighter and cheaper than an alternative air rifle and will provide a vast range of different shooting in comparison to an air rifle.

Rifles are designed for particular purposes, why try and make an air rifle perform like a sub sonic rimmy when the rimmy does a superior job in the first place. And then of course you can get them in Semi-auto as well.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

I was just thinking from the prespective that it might be easyer to get a FAC for an airgun than it would be for a ruger 22 ? or does it make no diference?

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

Im no expert on FAC and the variances in the differing Police Forces, however, an FAC rifle is an FAC rifle.

 

I read an article about the .22LR and the varied rounds you can run through it. Ranging from the Hyper velocity rounds running at 2500FPS down to BB caps running at just 27ft/lb. That then makes alot of FAC air rifles more powerful!

 

But on the whole, I guess the FEO will determine the rifle on the highest possible output. So if you have an Air Rifle thats running at 30ft/lb you would still be judged on an 80ft'lb rifle. As would a rimmy be judged on HV rather than subs.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[1 of 5]

A number of forces are issueing FAC airgun tickets with a max ft/lb stipulation too. BASC have successfully challenged some as unreasonable or even unlawful but if you get a limitation you're stuck until you shift it. If your land isn't suitable for .22lr then why try to circumvent such a consideration by getting an airgun to perform similarly.

Why mod the Brocock and end up with an unshootable dog when you can buy the career already to go at silly power levels?

[Axe]

That pretty much sums up what i'm saying. There are already tools for the job, just make sure you buy ther right tool!

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[mimic]

its part of the fun but i do see where your comming from why bother to go to this troble when i can get one already made....

 

I just enjoy the challenge its rewarding in a sence, Kind of like when you modify a cars engine theres always a little something else you can do to squeez a bit more power

 

Why bother to kit up a R5 Turbo when you can just get a jaguar?... well why indeed you both have a fare point. I just like custom models...

 

all the same what can u tell me about the career ? any pics?

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

Im not up to date on this stuff but check out this bad boy I found whilst scanning the internet.

 

This'll definitely give yousomethig to tinker with.

 

Axe.

 

Bad Boy

[Axe]

ShinSung make some fugly looking rifles.

 

Fugly Rifles

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[mimic]

Im not up to date on this stuff but check out this bad boy I found whilst scanning the internet.

 

This'll definitely give yousomethig to tinker with.

 

Axe.

 

Bad Boy

(drool, salivate , slober) now that is an Air rifle! tinker with that (drool pudle forming)

Edited October 12, 2005 by mimic

[Axe]

LMAO, anyway here is the shingsung website. I had to download text support for it

 

Shinsung Rifles

 

Regards,

 

Axe.