Peterlee shooting - BBC investigation

[David BASC]

BASC has been involved in a BBC investigative film on the New Year's Day shootings in Peterlee, Durham. BASC has raised concerns about the licensing process in the case. The film was broadcast last night in the North East and Cumbria and can be seen here for the next six days:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b019psbj/Inside_Out_North_East_and_Cumbria_16_01_2012/

 

Daivd

[samh6]

It was nice to see that BASC had an active involvement with the media over the Peterlee shooting and that the current systems flaws may be drawn out over the coming months both on the legislation side and enforcement side, on another note the October 2011 ACPO Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group minuets are up http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/crime/2012/CBA%20FELWG%20Mins%205Oct11.pdf

[David BASC]

Dear All

 

You will shortly see on the BASC web site a copy of the memo that has been sent to IPCC in the aftermath of the Peterlee shootings. It has been submitted as BASC has stakeholder interests in an aspect of the IPCC's investigation.

 

We have sent it to MPs in the All Party Group and distributed to other shooting organisations.

 

The supplemental point I would make is that the IPCC will not be holding a transparent investigation and this puts them on notice that certain questions need to be asked. That is also the reason for Mike and Simon appearing on the TV.

 

 

Thanks

 

David

[HDAV]

It was nice to see that BASC had an active involvement with the media over the Peterlee shooting and that the current systems flaws may be drawn out over the coming months both on the legislation side and enforcement side, on another note the October 2011 ACPO Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group minuets are up http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/crime/2012/CBA%20FELWG%20Mins%205Oct11.pdf

Interesting minutes indeed. Not sure on the relevance to Peterlee tho, DAvid will the IPCC report when done be published in the public domain?

Edited January 17, 2012 by HDAV

[DNS]

I'm not sure how much media monitoring the BASC do David - did you catch the IPM episode last Saturday the 14th? A caller described his mental health issues with respect to his SGC. It didn't reflect well on the licencing process and there was a definite steer towards a more active role from GPs. I don't think it did much for the general cause I'm afraid.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ipm

[David BASC]

Dear All

 

You will see on the BASC web site a copy of the memo that has been sent to IPCC in the aftermath of the Peterlee shootings. It has been submitted as BASC has stakeholder interests in an aspect of the IPCC's investigation.

 

We have sent it to MPs in the All Party Group and distributed to other shooting organisations.

 

The supplemental point I would make is that the IPCC will not be holding a transparent investigation and this puts them on notice that certain questions need to be asked. That is also the reason for Mike and Simon appearing on the TV.

 

 

Thanks

 

David

[HDAV]

Dear All

 

You will see on the BASC web site a copy of the memo that has been sent to IPCC in the aftermath of the Peterlee shootings. It has been submitted as BASC has stakeholder interests in an aspect of the IPCC's investigation.

Where? It's not under press releases?

[Cosd]

I'm not sure how much media monitoring the BASC do David - did you catch the IPM episode last Saturday the 14th? A caller described his mental health issues with respect to his SGC. It didn't reflect well on the licencing process and there was a definite steer towards a more active role from GPs. I don't think it did much for the general cause I'm afraid.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ipm

 

 

I think part of owning a gun license of any kind should involve each persons GP. If a persons mental state is a concern then a GP should inform the FAO. Obviously it's not as simple as that and guidelines would need to be set, but this could save peoples lives.

[David BASC]

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/key_issues.cfm/cid/BAD4A4CA-5CDF-406D-8BF6AFBAC8C63188

 

Here it is - top Key Issue on the BASC home page

 

David

[HDAV]

I think part of owning a gun license of any kind should involve each persons GP. If a persons mental state is a concern then a GP should inform the FAO. Obviously it's not as simple as that and guidelines would need to be set, but this could save peoples lives.

 

However if that is the case would it put people off going to there GP for fear of loosing certificates? How likely are the typical shooters (middle aged males) to go to there GP? If you force a GP examination there is no benefit (unless they flip that day) Also people suffering breakdowns or instability often don't seek the correct advice as they aren't in a rational mindset to do so!

 

That coupled with the huge delays and very limited resources of the mental system mean it is very very easy to slip through the cracks.

 

http://www.shropshirestar.com/latest/2009/04/03/fosters-inquest-told-of-suicidal-thoughts/

[Bloke]

A great letter from BASC, joint working can only help sort some of these problems out.

 

HOWEVER - a major problem will always be there, how do you spot the dangerous individual with no previous history? BASC's letter rightly points out the criteria for eligibilty and more importantly, the eligibility for exclusion, using the official language of "patterns of behaviour" and that great word, "previous". As someone who is currently undergoing application for FAC, I fully welcome the investigation into my past and previous behavoiur and attitude, but that only goes so far.

Past behaviour can logically only include that which is known and witnessed by others, otherwise it is not in any way "evidence", past atttitude problems again are only evident when the assessing officer is aware of them, they obviously cannot consider actions and behaviour they aren't aware of. How many times do we see in the papers headlines like "He seemed like such a nice man", or "she was such a pretty girl and liked by all" (I think that was ref Myra Hindley), yet obviously these people were and had been for some time, extremely dangerous! The other wonderful headlines include the opposite, comments like " We all knew what he/she was like", or "he/she was always a nasty piece of work", yet no-one had reported it to the police, no-one wants to be a 'grass' - well, they have themselves and their conscience to blame!

As a Mental Health professional for 30+ years, I have met a significant number of these individuals, and almost without exception they have been charming and friendly - until they don't get what they want... All of the Psychiatrists and Psychologists will tell you that in the majority of cases, unless there is significant clinical or historical evidence, it is nearly impossible to predict what people will do in the future. So, in a nutshell, we cannot predict the occasional Bentley or Atherton, all we can do is be aware and report individuals about whom we are concerned, as well as trying our best to keep a positive dialogue between the shooters and the public. It is hard to think that you might need to warn a mate that you are worried about them, or even report them, you might lose a friend - but the alternative might be another Atherton! We are social animals, we want to be a member of a group, no-one wants to be responsible for a friend losing their driving licence/SGC/FAC etc etc, a hard decision to make. I can hear all the comments coming - "Why should we make all the effort?" -"Typical *****y anti's!" - "Not our problem!", well it is our problem now, and if we (ALL of us)don't work with the press and the Police, then we will lose out, just saying 'Stuff 'em' and ignoring things won't do anything but delay the end. Just my 'umble opinion, I know many of you will more than likely disagree with me, but that is why this is an open forum, good luck to us all!

Edited January 17, 2012 by Bloke

[HDAV]

^ Is spot on......

[woodcock11]

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/key_issues.cfm/cid/BAD4A4CA-5CDF-406D-8BF6AFBAC8C63188

 

Here it is - top Key Issue on the BASC home page

 

David

 

Thank you - this BASC at it's very measured best - knowing both you, David & Bill as well [remind him about the "long gun"] I am not surprised.

 

Durham Constabulary will have some very painful questions to answer...

[bedwards1966]

I'd like to say well done to BASC, a good memo, and also well done in general for all the media stuff you've been involved with following this tragedy.

 

I'm not sure how much media monitoring the BASC do David - did you catch the IPM episode last Saturday the 14th? A caller described his mental health issues with respect to his SGC. It didn't reflect well on the licencing process and there was a definite steer towards a more active role from GPs. I don't think it did much for the general cause I'm afraid.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/ipm

 

I listened to that, I also thought it wasn't good and shows a very strong case for contacting GP's.

 

A great letter from BASC, joint working can only help sort some of these problems out.

 

HOWEVER - a major problem will always be there, how do you spot the dangerous individual with no previous history? BASC's letter rightly points out the criteria for eligibilty and more importantly, the eligibility for exclusion, using the official language of "patterns of behaviour" and that great word, "previous". As someone who is currently undergoing application for FAC, I fully welcome the investigation into my past and previous behavoiur and attitude, but that only goes so far.

Past behaviour can logically only include that which is known and witnessed by others, otherwise it is not in any way "evidence", past atttitude problems again are only evident when the assessing officer is aware of them, they obviously cannot consider actions and behaviour they aren't aware of. How many times do we see in the papers headlines like "He seemed like such a nice man", or "she was such a pretty girl and liked by all" (I think that was ref Myra Hindley), yet obviously these people were and had been for some time, extremely dangerous! The other wonderful headlines include the opposite, comments like " We all knew what he/she was like", or "he/she was always a nasty piece of work", yet no-one had reported it to the police, no-one wants to be a 'grass' - well, they have themselves and their conscience to blame!

As a Mental Health professional for 30+ years, I have met a significant number of these individuals, and almost without exception they have been charming and friendly - until they don't get what they want... All of the Psychiatrists and Psychologists will tell you that in the majority of cases, unless there is significant clinical or historical evidence, it is nearly impossible to predict what people will do in the future. So, in a nutshell, we cannot predict the occasional Bentley or Atherton, all we can do is be aware and report individuals about whom we are concerned, as well as trying our best to keep a positive dialogue between the shooters and the public. It is hard to think that you might need to warn a mate that you are worried about them, or even report them, you might lose a friend - but the alternative might be another Atherton! We are social animals, we want to be a member of a group, no-one wants to be responsible for a friend losing their driving licence/SGC/FAC etc etc, a hard decision to make. I can hear all the comments coming - "Why should we make all the effort?" -"Typical *****y anti's!" - "Not our problem!", well it is our problem now, and if we (ALL of us)don't work with the press and the Police, then we will lose out, just saying 'Stuff 'em' and ignoring things won't do anything but delay the end. Just my 'umble opinion, I know many of you will more than likely disagree with me, but that is why this is an open forum, good luck to us all!

 

In many ways I agree with you, people can seem perfectly OK when you meet them, and with no previous recorded incidents these people will be able to own firearms, I don't think there is anything that can be done about that, as you've basically pointed out.

However, when things have come to attention as in this Peterlee shooting, it clearly should prevent firearms ownership. This case clearly showed a case of an unstable person.

 

I also take the view that anybody who is considered unfit to hold firearms by a friend should always be reported, I've never had to do it but can understand it would not be a nice thing to have to do, but it concerns everyone as in some cases it may prevent murder.

[Bloke]

In many ways I agree with you, people can seem perfectly OK when you meet them, and with no previous recorded incidents these people will be able to own firearms, I don't think there is anything that can be done about that, as you've basically pointed out.

However, when things have come to attention as in this Peterlee shooting, it clearly should prevent firearms ownership. This case clearly showed a case of an unstable person.

I also take the view that anybody who is considered unfit to hold firearms by a friend should always be reported, I've never had to do it but can understand it would not be a nice thing to have to do, but it concerns everyone as in some cases it may prevent murder.

 

I completely agree with you, sorry if is doesn't come across that way, from what I have read, the Police had a clear trail of evidence to show that Atherton was a person with mental health and control issues and that should have rang clear enough bells to pull his licence. As BASC said, there was clear enough evidence, and research shows he had very little grounds to contest the revoking of his cert - so why give it back? More going on than we were told methinks, and if the granting was by one of the dismissed FEOs, are we ever going to find out why - doubtful!

I wasn't proposing that we all go round every time a mate has a 'strop' on and warn him/her that we will report him/her to the Police, but there are times when to everyone concerned, a person is obviously having very serious emotional or control issues, then we have to ask ourselves what we should do - if we aren't sure, then maybe we should call the FEO, to perform an assessment as an independant witness.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Bloke

[RC45]

Thanks David. Spot on as usual... Worth the membership IMHO..

[Robin128]

Great to see BASC adding value yet again to our sport.

 

http://psa.bizhosting.com/whats_new.html

 

 

It is very worrying that Police do not always follow the prescribed control framework in the approval and renewal of FA and SG certs...to the extent that FEO's doing their job properly are over-ridden by senior Police officers...to the cost of the public in general and safe law abiding shooters in particular.

 

I would add that all of the Police forces ought to make checks to determine which shooters are drunks and to also turn down those with violent records.

 

I would share this responsibility with Club Secs who often remain silent.