nicholiath Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) I reload for my rifles but have never reloaded shotgun cartridges. I want to reload once fired20 bore 70 mm eley vip with 28 g of 6 shot and fibre wad. What powder and how many grains which primer what size wad? Edited December 2, 2012 by nicholiath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Have a trawl through for posts from Sitsinhedges. He does a fair bit of reloading for 20 bore and I think his favourite powder is Vectan A0 for 28 grams of lead. If you go to Nobel sport italia website, they publish a lot of data on there (thanks to Sitsinhedges for letting me know about that one). Failing that have a look at metal2models website. They have recipes posted for Vectan A1 If you can't get Vectan locally, have a look at Hodgdens website. there is lots of data for plastic wads from which I am currently trying to work up a fibre load with Longshot powder. All the best with it. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholiath Posted December 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Thanks Brian i would be looking to use fibre wad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I haven't been reloading very long myself and am just passing on what I have been told or read in a lot of cases (if it sounds reasonable to me). For using Longshot powder I have started with a recipe off the website with a reasonably good pressure and speed and simply substituted the plastic wad for an over powder card and fibre wad. Cookoff13 has advocated about 10000 psi as a good start point in the past but I am not sure if that's for 12 bore only. From what I have seen, mainly from this forum, the general concensus is that fibre wads tend not to seal as well as plastic so the result should be a slightly lower pressure. I would not be tempted to increase the powder charge to compensate until you have tested the original (and got advice from someone who knows a bit more about it). The main issue will be getting the right column height for a decent crimp. I am not familiar with VIP hulls so couldn't really say exactly what you need. You would probably be best ordering a wad around 16mm ish high and some filler wads for fine adjustment. Don't forget the overpowder card as well. If you can get Vectan locally, I would suggest that is the way to go as it will work out a lot cheaper. (Longshot locally is around £34 for an 8oz tub). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I haven't been reloading very long myself and am just passing on what I have been told or read in a lot of cases (if it sounds reasonable to me). For using Longshot powder I have started with a recipe off the website with a reasonably good pressure and speed and simply substituted the plastic wad for an over powder card and fibre wad. Cookoff13 has advocated about 10000 psi as a good start point in the past but I am not sure if that's for 12 bore only. From what I have seen, mainly from this forum, the general concensus is that fibre wads tend not to seal as well as plastic so the result should be a slightly lower pressure. I would not be tempted to increase the powder charge to compensate until you have tested the original (and got advice from someone who knows a bit more about it). The main issue will be getting the right column height for a decent crimp. I am not familiar with VIP hulls so couldn't really say exactly what you need. You would probably be best ordering a wad around 16mm ish high and some filler wads for fine adjustment. Don't forget the overpowder card as well. If you can get Vectan locally, I would suggest that is the way to go as it will work out a lot cheaper. (Longshot locally is around £34 for an 8oz tub). yeah i advocate about 10kpsi, thats where some of the magic happens, i`d always select a load that was near this and never ever ever add any more powder. the reason for decent load data is to read it and to see that the load is running well. longshot is a very special powder as it can give phenomimal velocity for the loads, it is just one component of a magic formula of components and quantities. i use set criterial for loading, the pressure is one of the main components, load too low, and its dirty and inconsistent and maybe slow. load it hotter and the variation is reduces, in some cases 9fps variation ! the published recipes should be fine. longshot is a very powerful powder. it just runs well in 20bores, because its a slower burning powder. slower burning powder neen above average pressures to give exceptional results... the 20bore has a higher pressure ceiling than the 12gauge, so never be too overly concerned about the numbers published by manufacturers. also, the manufacturer of longshot is hodgdon. there data is phenominal, because they publish a load ladder. ie they load up in increments so with the same components, a loader can relaod up to 5 combinations, usually to a spped or a pressure a loader wants. the data source is exceptional, and in most cases give the relationship between pressure and speed with each loading. i`ve started using a little known powder thats way too hot, but thats a different story. as fibre is rarely loaded, and data is scarce, i tent to have set goals for what should be acceptable, this usually inolves, checking burn rate comparatively for the weight of shot in general, then load that to 10kpsi, as the data says. please follow the data, as printed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp sorry, the data wouldnt paste right.... but there is some decent 20 bore loads. use cheddite data, with lon gshot 7/8oz and 1oz, gualandi wads. Edited December 4, 2012 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Shell: 2 3/4" CHEDDITE PLASTIC SHELLS 20 gauge 70mm Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 20.2 grains 8,900 PSI 1300 fps Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 21.3 9,700 PSI 1350 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 22.4 10,500 PSI 1400 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 23.5 11,300 PSI 1450 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 20.3 8,800 PSI 1300 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 21.4 9,800 PSI 1350 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 22.4 10,700 PSI 1400 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 23.5 11,400 PSI 1450 and for 1oz loads... Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 17.5 7,700 PSI 1165 fps Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 18.9 8,900 PSI 1220 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 20.2 10,100 PSI 1275 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 21.6 11,400 PSI 1330 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 17.4 8,100 PSI 1165 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 18.9 9,200 PSI 1220 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 20.4 10,300 PSI 1275 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 21.9 11,500 PSI 1330 this is just a simple dataset, changing the primers. the reason i`ve pulled this out is that the dataset uses european components, the only kick in the teeth is the cost of longshot, but as you can clearly see from the dataset is the powder for fast 7/8oz loads.. as you can see they have only published pressures 8000psi + just select the speed and load ! i`ve marked off the loads that i would consider to load in the first instance. sits in hedges probly does have a better european set of data, its just this dataset is extremely clear and for first time reloaders, beyond simple. please check over the data at hodgdons site ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholiath Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Shell: 2 3/4" CHEDDITE PLASTIC SHELLS 20 gauge 70mm Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 20.2 grains 8,900 PSI 1300 fps Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 21.3 9,700 PSI 1350 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 22.4 10,500 PSI 1400 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2025 23.5 11,300 PSI 1450 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 20.3 8,800 PSI 1300 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 21.4 9,800 PSI 1350 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 22.4 10,700 PSI 1400 Lead Shot 20 7/8 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2025 23.5 11,400 PSI 1450 and for 1oz loads... Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 17.5 7,700 PSI 1165 fps Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 18.9 8,900 PSI 1220 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 20.2 10,100 PSI 1275 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Ched. 209 GU 2021 21.6 11,400 PSI 1330 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 17.4 8,100 PSI 1165 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 18.9 9,200 PSI 1220 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 20.4 10,300 PSI 1275 Lead Shot 20 1 oz. Longshot Fio. 616 GU 2021 21.9 11,500 PSI 1330 this is just a simple dataset, changing the primers. the reason i`ve pulled this out is that the dataset uses european components, the only kick in the teeth is the cost of longshot, but as you can clearly see from the dataset is the powder for fast 7/8oz loads.. as you can see they have only published pressures 8000psi + just select the speed and load ! i`ve marked off the loads that i would consider to load in the first instance. sits in hedges probly does have a better european set of data, its just this dataset is extremely clear and for first time reloaders, beyond simple. please check over the data at hodgdons site ! many thanks. Could i use this load data and substitute the plastic wad for fibre and over powder card? Or is it not worth home loading fibre loads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 i generally would pick pressure of 10kpsi or more and use that as a fibre load.but that is seriously changing the load. i`m not going to advise you to do that. thats what i have done. as for the "is it worth it to reload?" "with fibre" we do what we do for our passion. maybe worth reloading for game or other such loads. but i prety much burn off anything at clays. i even design new loads to just shoot. finance is not my primary reloading concern. i reload to bang out the perfect shells, that out perform most shells and have uniqueness. sitsinhedges should jump in to this as i heve very limited experience with 20gauge, (almost none !) cook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 so the idea of selecting 10kpsi for 12gauge, is thats close to hot, the cip has a pressure maximum of 740bar, that is 10,770psi. at that pressure it tells me, the load will burn and that it will clear the bore.saami max pressure is 11,500psi. now, every single powder has its own charicteristics, every one has a minimum burn pressure for the given shot payload. the first 7/8oz 20gauge loads in the previous posts, state that 9000psi is about the minimum you`d want run the pressure at, that pressure probly has been selected when hodgdon loaded up a bunch of cartridges from "less than x" grains onwards and those pressures where the load starts to perform well, probly because the shot to shot consistensy becomes very good. now for the one ounce loads there is alot more shot column, more resistance, more weight..... so in theory should need less powder to get the same pressure, but sacrigising some speed. checking it over, the published loads start at 8000psi, it has a lower pressure where the load becoms consistent and publishable. you would theorise that for loads of 32g it would be alot slower, and have a smaller pressure that it burns at..... but i`m "slightly mistaken", looking at the 3" 32gram loads, its a pretty large load for the 20gauge, but in this instance the load still needs 9000psi, + but only to gets 1200fps. i think in this instance, the powder is being pushed too hard. not un usable, but its being pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I loaded the 1oz Cheddite primer version that Cookoff013 posted and highlighted with OP card/fibre wad/cork filler in some once fired 70mm Gamebore hulls. I shot a few at the weekend and they seemed to go pretty well. The barrel was just a touch dirtier than the Lyalvale special 20 (control) shells though not much in it. The report and recoil sounded and felt ok and there were no warning signs on the shell cases. As it was a pretty cold day I am failrly happy that the shell should operate properly over the conditions I normaly shoot in (this year that has mainly been cold and wet but never mind!). It is probably not optimised but seems to me to be a good point to start loading from (please don't take any short cuts- it's not worth it). I will be loading a few more up to this recipe and do some proper comparisons when I get chance. I will also be looking to get hold of some A0 to have a look at in the New Year as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 What thickness wad, OP card and cork did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 What thickness wad, OP card and cork did you use? From my notes it was a 3mm OP card/ 16mm fibre wad and a 2.5mm cork filler for a Gamebore hull. That was close to providing a good crimp. My notes say that I need to either tweak the crimp settings or use a thicker filler and play around with the wad seating pressures (not too much though) as I didn't use much on the original batch. Those components might be OK with a VIP hull but I don't know what base wad height they are. There might be a bit of fettling to get the right column height but that's half the fun (or so I am told). Don't know how true it is but I have read that the Americans have been known to use puffed wheat (underneath the shot I assume) to build the column height up. If that's true, then it is a convenient and cheap way of making small adjustments. Never tried it myself though. Anyone else got any thoughts on that method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Thanks for the info! I use 70mm Gamebore cases also, but with the recipe as stated i.e. CX2000, 22.6 gr Longshot, GU 2025 wad and 7/8 oz lead. Stonking good load in 7/8, a bit too punchy in 1oz for my liking - I would simply use a 12 bore if I was firing 1oz loads at any volume e.g. decoying. The 7/8 load kills very well. The wads are cheap enough from clay and game. I think people only really use cereal etc fillers in plastic wad shot cups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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