new to the flock Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 NTTF, Murray the springer is my first gun dog (I know what your all thinking!) and I did make a few mistakes along the way.... he is now 2 and a bit. I have been going to a trainer for the best part of a year now with both dogs (springer and a cocker) the springer seems hell bent on chasing, something we have tried and tried to get out of him with rabbit pens etc, some weeks he's like the perfect dog, other weeks hes looks like he has had no training what so ever! even the trainer has said "don't spend any more money on him and retire him now!" i took him to shoots too soon, which is the main problem, that said we do have a nice and well trained pet! the cocker on the other hand is fantastic (i didn't make the same mistakes, and the trainer even thinks I have gone over board a little) I now have to walk the dogs separately, as I don't want the cocker picking up the chasing habit, tonight as an example, I walked the cocker, all very good, worked him a little walked him to heal etc, (something i do on most walks, just to make sure he knows what he has to do...) I return home, swap dogs over, get to the first field with Murray.. all OK, walking to heal etc, into next field walk 50 yards a hare gets up and off they both go........... hes gone for 5 mins! when he returns I take him back the the point I hit the whistle and repeat the command, then put lead on walk back to the car and home with out saying a word, this is something I have done in the past, but does it have any affect.... nope! I have no idea what to do next, if anything can be done? Adam -------------------- The Locksmith A Springer and a Cocker, Yes, I like trouble! ................................................................................ .......................................................................... Adam is it just rabbits and hares he bolts on or is it birds aswell? The reason it has no effect is that after 5 minutes , actually it is really about 8 seconds your dog has no idea what he is being disaplined for. Does he bolt if on lead? NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 NTTF, everything that is chasable, yes even on the lead, he know the difference between training and shooting, when act accordingly, ie in the pen he is a little strained but will not chase, in the field if any bird or ground game get up off he goes. when he returns he knows he has done wrong as his tail is between is legs (i don't call him back once i have called the stop whistle as i don't want to discipline him for coming when called) Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Are you looking to have him sit on he flush? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Are you looking to have him sit on he flush? NTTF, anything but chasing! i don't care... I have tried the sit to flush and shot etc... in the training ground he is OK, in the field its a different matter Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Adam, There is a way to go about fixing this problem, however I would like a little more info first. 1) when you blow the whistle, exactly what does the dog do?.......look at you before bolting, just bolt straight out, show any sign that he heard the whistle? 2) when he comes back exactly what do you do, including voice...tone....,body stance, and correction. 3) have you only hunted him off lead or have you used a long line in the past? NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Adam, There is a way to go about fixing this problem, however I would like a little more info first. 1) when you blow the whistle, exactly what does the dog do?.......look at you before bolting, just bolt straight out, show any sign that he heard the whistle? 2) when he comes back exactly what do you do, including voice...tone....,body stance, and correction. 3) have you only hunted him off lead or have you used a long line in the past? NTTF NTTF, 1) when you blow the whistle, exactly what does the dog do?.......look at you before bolting, just bolt straight out, show any sign that he heard the whistle? he shows no sign of hearing the whistle whats so ever ( i think he is too taken by the moment) 2) when he comes back exactly what do you do, including voice...tone....,body stance, and correction. when he returns he generally get about a 100 yards away and goes down on all 4's, I approach saying nothing, I hold him by either the scruff or ear, and return him the the place he was when the whistle was blow (I mark it with the lead) I then put him in the sit and look at him and give a blow on the whistle and repeat the command SIT, i then work him in the opposite direction to the bolt, then do a command he knows and praise him for doing right. body stance: don't really know? 3) have you only hunted him off lead or have you used a long line in the past? I have used a long line a couple of times, not very often Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Adam one last question; What does he do when you blow the sit whistle while he is on lead? NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Adam one last question; What does he do when you blow the sit whistle while he is on lead? NTTF NTTF, he sits, he is also good when walking to heal, he will also sit to the stop whistle while working (most of the time) but when confronted with a bird/rabbit/hare/munjak/anything that moves off he goes! Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Sorry Adam just trying to decide on the best of 2 ways to proceed with your dog, so have 2 more questions. When loose in the rabbit pen and he bolts even though you have blown the whistle how long is it until you have him on the spot that he bolted from and reblown the whistle? Have you worked him on a line in the pen with flushes i front of him? If so what did he do when the whistle was blown, and how did you correct? NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Sorry Adam just trying to decide on the best of 2 ways to proceed with your dog, so have 2 more questions. When loose in the rabbit pen and he bolts even though you have blown the whistle how long is it until you have him on the spot that he bolted from and reblown the whistle? Have you worked him on a line in the pen with flushes i front of him? If so what did he do when the whistle was blown, and how did you correct? NTTF NTTF, When loose in the rabbit pen and he bolts even though you have blown the whistle how long is it until you have him on the spot that he bolted from and reblown the whistle? 15 to 20 seconds (when we catch him or he returns) he will only do it once, from then on he is fine and will not chase them Have you worked him on a line in the pen with flushes i front of him? If so what did he do when the whistle was blown, and how did you correct? we have worked him on the lead, and when a rabbit is flushed we blow the whistle and he sits. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Okay let me see if I have this correct. When on lead he responds to the whistle. When working in the pen if he bolts he only does it once , then is steady. When out hunting or on walks he consistantly bolts and ignors the whistle. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 8, 2006 Report Share Posted November 8, 2006 Okay let me see if I have this correct. When on lead he responds to the whistle. When working in the pen if he bolts he only does it once , then is steady. When out hunting or on walks he constantly bolts and ignores the whistle. NTTF NTTF, When on lead he responds to the whistle. Yep When working in the pen if he bolts he only does it once , then is steady. As steady as a spaniel can be! When out hunting or on walks he consistantly bolts and ignors the whistle. I wouldn't say constantly, but if game gets up in front of him he's gone..... Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 Adam, What has happened is your dog has learned that he can get away from you while off the lead. He also figures that the punishment that he gets when he returns to you is worth the joy of chasing what ever has gotton up. When he returns, as far as he is concerned he is getting in trouble for coming back, at the farthest point back he may think it is for the chase, but it is not for ignoring the sit. You have 8 seconds from the time you blow the sit whistle until you have re enforced it before that thought has been lost by him. I would personally take this dogs problem and break it down into 2 seperate training proceedures. First off I would teach a NO GAME command meaning do not even think of going after that, and then I would re teach the sit on whistle command using an electronic collar on the rump. The collar allows instant correction at the point of infraction from a distance. Distance appears to be one of your main problems. Before anyone starts e-collars, are not meant to be used as a punishment. They are meant to be used as a signal, the same as a clicker, whistle or a tap on the head for sending. Many of them have an audible signal only button on them for the dog. This is known as a praise button. E-collars have a bad reputation in general, this was created by people that did not know or understand what they were doing, and by inferiour units that were on the market years ago. Used correctly and skillfully, and calibrated to an individual dogs response level they are a valuble training aid. If you are interested in how to correct your spaniels problem, and how to turn him into the happy hunting dog you wanted him to be let me know and I will write up a step by step user guide and training program for the pair of you. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Adam,What has happened is your dog has learned that he can get away from you while off the lead. He also figures that the punishment that he gets when he returns to you is worth the joy of chasing what ever has gotton up. When he returns, as far as he is concerned he is getting in trouble for coming back, at the farthest point back he may think it is for the chase, but it is not for ignoring the sit. You have 8 seconds from the time you blow the sit whistle until you have re enforced it before that thought has been lost by him. I would personally take this dogs problem and break it down into 2 seperate training proceedures. First off I would teach a NO GAME command meaning do not even think of going after that, and then I would re teach the sit on whistle command using an electronic collar on the rump. The collar allows instant correction at the point of infraction from a distance. Distance appears to be one of your main problems. Before anyone starts e-collars, are not meant to be used as a punishment. They are meant to be used as a signal, the same as a clicker, whistle or a tap on the head for sending. Many of them have an audible signal only button on them for the dog. This is known as a praise button. E-collars have a bad reputation in general, this was created by people that did not know or understand what they were doing, and by inferiour units that were on the market years ago. Used correctly and skillfully, and calibrated to an individual dogs response level they are a valuble training aid. If you are interested in how to correct your spaniels problem, and how to turn him into the happy hunting dog you wanted him to be let me know and I will write up a step by step user guide and training program for the pair of you. NTTF NTTF, Yes please! the dog loves to work but with this little habit it makes it a little difficult, Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Adam, I will put up a training program for you this week. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2006 Sorry Adam but the computer locked me out sometime Thursday night, and this is the first I have been able to get back on. Okay first off what you need to do is rent, buy or borrow an electronic collar. Be sure that it has at least a quarter mile range, and is a veriable intensity model allowing you to set the levels of stimulation from the transmitter. I would also highly recommend that it has a praise button on it as well. What we are going to do is introduce the collar to your dog, this means he will be wearing it for upto 4 hours aday with it in the off mode for 2 weeks. If it comes with a dummy collar even better. You are going to have him allternate wear it around his neck and around his flank. While he wears it around his neck it should be located snugly with the contact points on his throat. While he wears it on his flank the contact points should be on his rump. After the 2 week introduction time we will be testing him to see what level we need to start at. We will be choosing the lowest level that we have a response to. I will walk you through the selection process after you have had him introduced for the 2 weeks as I do not want you getting ahead of the dog or yourself it is very important to take this one step at a time. What we will be doing is teaching him how to sit to the collar. This is called bending. We will teach this on lead to start, then long lead then off lead. At the end you will have a dog that will respect the whistle at any distance. We are also going to teach a No Bird or No Game command for missed birds and game, or for quarry not shot at. This command will stop him from chasing, but will not cause him to sit, or stop hunting. Let me know as soon as you have a collar, or if you need help in selecting one. Cheers, NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Sorry Adam but the computer locked me out sometime Thursday night, and this is the first I have been able to get back on. Okay first off what you need to do is rent, buy or borrow an electronic collar. Be sure that it has at least a quarter mile range, and is a veriable intensity model allowing you to set the levels of stimulation from the transmitter. I would also highly recommend that it has a praise button on it as well. What we are going to do is introduce the collar to your dog, this means he will be wearing it for upto 4 hours aday with it in the off mode for 2 weeks. If it comes with a dummy collar even better. You are going to have him allternate wear it around his neck and around his flank. While he wears it around his neck it should be located snugly with the contact points on his throat. While he wears it on his flank the contact points should be on his rump. After the 2 week introduction time we will be testing him to see what level we need to start at. We will be choosing the lowest level that we have a response to. I will walk you through the selection process after you have had him introduced for the 2 weeks as I do not want you getting ahead of the dog or yourself it is very important to take this one step at a time. What we will be doing is teaching him how to sit to the collar. This is called bending. We will teach this on lead to start, then long lead then off lead. At the end you will have a dog that will respect the whistle at any distance. We are also going to teach a No Bird or No Game command for missed birds and game, or for quarry not shot at. This command will stop him from chasing, but will not cause him to sit, or stop hunting. Let me know as soon as you have a collar, or if you need help in selecting one. Cheers, NTTF NTTF, Thanks for the info, as soon as I have one, I will let you know I have seen a couple on the net, I might PM them to you to see what you think Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted December 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Adam, How are you making out? NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Adam,How are you making out? NTTF Nttf, still in discussion with the boss, she's still not sure..... Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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