CZ 527 pillar bedding

[kent]

Having had some issues with climatic induced changes in my walnut stocked CZ 527 in .22 Hornet I decided it was time to bed the thing. I was certainly getting some compression of the wood on the front action screw, the lug contact was poor (though CZ had stuck it into what might only be described as a Chewing gum type substance) and the rear screw had a floating anti compression floating pillar ( or to give it a more descriptive term a split rivet pressed into service as such). The evidence for this / these assumptions was a changing feel of fit to the magazine, a tendency for zero to wander a little shot in damp or dry conditions and the difficulty in placing five round groups. Ok so its a sporter tube and five round groups are not the best way of measuring a sporters real accuracy but when shooting vermin at reasonable range with a well moderated centre fire its not uncommon to empty a 5 shot mag with quarry like bunnies (rare with crows mind) and I wanted all those shots to place reliably not just the first three.

However the gun shot very well over three shot groups once you had zero reasonably confirmed 1st clean, cold shot, so I sort of put things off a while.

Over the summer period I did not have a great deal of work for it so I decided to get it sorted and below are a list of tips / experiances for any who are thinking of the same with the CZ 527.

 

The first thing you will encounter is the inability of getting any real meat into those pillars. The front will break into the mag well very quickly and although you can use a meaty pillar then remove the excess metal that protrudes I was not keen, after all its not a bench gun I just wanted to stop / limit compression and climatic changes. To this end "all thread" or lamp rod was used. Opening up the front screw location hole will leave just enough wood in place for the mag well to not be broken into and besides the thread helps greatly with adhesion and the central hole is perfectly oversize on the action screw it will encompass when fitted.

I used a ceramic "egg" shaped cutter to enlarge the hole as a drill will most certainly grab and tear at the wood. The pillars were cut slightly oversize then taken back to the perfect length and square with an oilstone. Function and mag feed was then meticulously checked (after much pre-measuring they worked first time though)and finally the pillars were bonded in and set aside to cure in the stock. The "all thread" was also used for the rear pillar as the issue here is space available yet again.

 

When the pillars had reached cure time ( I use Hysol 3475A by Loctite btw ) I got the dremel out and relived the wood from the lug area and around both pillars and the first 1 -1 1/2" of the barrel channel. This is to give a good depth and roughness for the synthetic bedding to take effect and also grip (very light skims tend to come loose and limit the stabilising effect of the bedding). Then fitting electrical tape wraps to the barrel to keep it centralised in the channel and also to the action screws so they centred in the pillars without contact. I proceeded to plug the holes with plastacine and polish the action up with shoe wax as a release agent in the std way. Again a good amount of Hysol two pack was added to the stock, screws were just pulled up to the pillars and everything left to cure. Be aware that ding things this way rather than using surgical tube etc to compress the action into the stock the action screws will pick up compound, so be sure to wax them well and clean the tops off with a cotton bud and some finger before it hardens somewhere you don't want it to

 

The following day the action was removed cleaned and re-assembled (loosing an ejector spring flying off some lace unknown in the process) these BTW are a swine to re-assemble, in future I should just leave it in place. Edgars did me proud by refusing to supply me direct in the post for a spring that must cost sub 5pence and sent in instead to my dealer with a £7 invoice, having sent it signed for etc. Well done top service the dealer was so embarrassed and showed me the attached invoice. Strange because no oven distributor would quibble about sending out such a part direct and its not a component firearm part in law, how the heck do they expect him to mark up the crazy price anyhow? If they misguidedly think they are protecting his business. If he hadn't shown the invoice and how the cost was made up he might have lost any future custom from me as he well realised.

 

So next job clean up, not too hard if you take the bother to clean up the overspill with white vinegar and mask up during the initial fitting of metal to wood. But you still end up with cleaning the ends were some gets past the barrel plastacine dam etc.. Unlike many I do not bed along all the action but use a std old fashioned two point bed, as I have experienced to many issues with bedding being damaged in small contact areas in hunting rifles were the stocks are regular removed for drying / cleaning, unlike bench guns without mag wells that are generally shot under canopy roofs and never in full rain. sometimes these are also done as "glue ins" I have had no issues doing this two point bed or noticed any real improvements in full bedding such an action type (stress is only created by the two points pressure is applied anyway), the mid section must however "free float".

 

How does it shoot?

Well, it shot well before 3 shot groups have achieved 1/2 moa at 200 yds (although 4th and 5th if fired tended to open things up). What I wanted was improved ability to hold zero under changing climatic changes to the wood and to bring those 4th and 5th shots into line (groups literally went 1,2,3 then printed 4 and 5 elsewhere) ok I know sporter barrel but this is not opening up generally its 4 and 5 close together but elsewhere than the first 3.

Having re-established zero and using the less favoured 40 grain Seirras over my favourite 45's. the first two 5 shot groups printed 0.85" and 0.95" at 150 yds. Moving things out to 200yds the first group achieved 2.47" then 2.12" and finally produced the better 1.53" again all for five shots and shot rapidly. I did not even let the gun cool between groups and it was pretty hot at the end of those 15 rounds and heat of the moderator was not helping the sight picture to much either. The important thing was they all formed nice balanced groups without forming what might be called "split groups". Moving back to 100yds now I placed two 5 shot groups for around 1/2" (not measured) and then placing some 45's (its favoured bullet) back in the mag it shot a three shot screamer with brass that's past its best and powder charges thrown without weighing.

So time will tell if the day to day zero holds better, but it looks like I have achieved what I wanted as regards consistency over the 5 rounds (given the skinny barrel it aint half bad to be fair). I never really expected the 3 shot groups to tighten (so never tried) and to be truthful I don't think I shot my best after laying a large concrete slab in the morning with 16 bag of stone and then taking a 2 hr long walk with the dog prior, there is just some things I cannot do quite so well as I could 20 yrs ago LOL

[Amazed]

I thought about doing mine, but in all honesty I don't have the time so if it's ever to be done I will prob pay for it

 

Hope it helps though.

 

I have noticed that with out a mod on mine shoot better anyhow.

 

All the best

Karl.

[kent]

I thought about doing mine, but in all honesty I don't have the time so if it's ever to be done I will prob pay for it

 

Hope it helps though.

 

I have noticed that with out a mod on mine shoot better anyhow.

 

All the best

Karl.

No reason why a moderator might make it shoot worse, other than the threading job- have you any ideas on the why? I have never found vast improvements in bedding a rifle that had no glaring fault (like little or no lug contact), it just makes them more predictable day to day. To be fair I should bed in the bottom Iron if I was chasing greater accuracy in such a gun but the weakest link will always be elsewhere on the Hornet.

[Amazed]

No reason why a moderator might make it shoot worse, other than the threading job- have you any ideas on the why? I have never found vast improvements in bedding a rifle that had no glaring fault (like little or no lug contact), it just makes them more predictable day to day. To be fair I should bed in the bottom Iron if I was chasing greater accuracy in such a gun but the weakest link will always be elsewhere on the Hornet.

I think it's the balance.

Will try a reflex mod at some point when my licence turnes back up.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Amazed

[Amazed]

Barrel harmonics

That's probably the answer.

I have no issues with the accuracy of the gun modded or not. It just seems to shoot better without.

The only reason I would have it bedded is that the action doesn't sit quite square in the stock(the gaps are different on each Sid of the barrel) and it does wind me up a bit lol.

[bicykillgaz]

Gaps are different either side of my barrel Karl, mines also been glass bedded round the action. I'm gonna take a bit out the barrel channel at some point to even out the gap.

Edited September 24, 2013 by bicykillgaz

[Amazed]

Oops

Edited September 24, 2013 by Amazed

[nicholiath]

Having had some issues with climatic induced changes in my walnut stocked CZ 527 in .22 Hornet I decided it was time to bed the thing. I was certainly getting some compression of the wood on the front action screw, the lug contact was poor (though CZ had stuck it into what might only be described as a Chewing gum type substance) and the rear screw had a floating anti compression floating pillar ( or to give it a more descriptive term a split rivet pressed into service as such). The evidence for this / these assumptions was a changing feel of fit to the magazine, a tendency for zero to wander a little shot in damp or dry conditions and the difficulty in placing five round groups. Ok so its a sporter tube and five round groups are not the best way of measuring a sporters real accuracy but when shooting vermin at reasonable range with a well moderated centre fire its not uncommon to empty a 5 shot mag with quarry like bunnies (rare with crows mind) and I wanted all those shots to place reliably not just the first three.

However the gun shot very well over three shot groups once you had zero reasonably confirmed 1st clean, cold shot, so I sort of put things off a while.

Over the summer period I did not have a great deal of work for it so I decided to get it sorted and below are a list of tips / experiances for any who are thinking of the same with the CZ 527.

 

The first thing you will encounter is the inability of getting any real meat into those pillars. The front will break into the mag well very quickly and although you can use a meaty pillar then remove the excess metal that protrudes I was not keen, after all its not a bench gun I just wanted to stop / limit compression and climatic changes. To this end "all thread" or lamp rod was used. Opening up the front screw location hole will leave just enough wood in place for the mag well to not be broken into and besides the thread helps greatly with adhesion and the central hole is perfectly oversize on the action screw it will encompass when fitted.

I used a ceramic "egg" shaped cutter to enlarge the hole as a drill will most certainly grab and tear at the wood. The pillars were cut slightly oversize then taken back to the perfect length and square with an oilstone. Function and mag feed was then meticulously checked (after much pre-measuring they worked first time though)and finally the pillars were bonded in and set aside to cure in the stock. The "all thread" was also used for the rear pillar as the issue here is space available yet again.

 

When the pillars had reached cure time ( I use Hysol 3475A by Loctite btw ) I got the dremel out and relived the wood from the lug area and around both pillars and the first 1 -1 1/2" of the barrel channel. This is to give a good depth and roughness for the synthetic bedding to take effect and also grip (very light skims tend to come loose and limit the stabilising effect of the bedding). Then fitting electrical tape wraps to the barrel to keep it centralised in the channel and also to the action screws so they centred in the pillars without contact. I proceeded to plug the holes with plastacine and polish the action up with shoe wax as a release agent in the std way. Again a good amount of Hysol two pack was added to the stock, screws were just pulled up to the pillars and everything left to cure. Be aware that ding things this way rather than using surgical tube etc to compress the action into the stock the action screws will pick up compound, so be sure to wax them well and clean the tops off with a cotton bud and some finger before it hardens somewhere you don't want it to

 

The following day the action was removed cleaned and re-assembled (loosing an ejector spring flying off some lace unknown in the process) these BTW are a swine to re-assemble, in future I should just leave it in place. Edgars did me proud by refusing to supply me direct in the post for a spring that must cost sub 5pence and sent in instead to my dealer with a £7 invoice, having sent it signed for etc. Well done top service the dealer was so embarrassed and showed me the attached invoice. Strange because no oven distributor would quibble about sending out such a part direct and its not a component firearm part in law, how the heck do they expect him to mark up the crazy price anyhow? If they misguidedly think they are protecting his business. If he hadn't shown the invoice and how the cost was made up he might have lost any future custom from me as he well realised.

 

So next job clean up, not too hard if you take the bother to clean up the overspill with white vinegar and mask up during the initial fitting of metal to wood. But you still end up with cleaning the ends were some gets past the barrel plastacine dam etc.. Unlike many I do not bed along all the action but use a std old fashioned two point bed, as I have experienced to many issues with bedding being damaged in small contact areas in hunting rifles were the stocks are regular removed for drying / cleaning, unlike bench guns without mag wells that are generally shot under canopy roofs and never in full rain. sometimes these are also done as "glue ins" I have had no issues doing this two point bed or noticed any real improvements in full bedding such an action type (stress is only created by the two points pressure is applied anyway), the mid section must however "free float".

 

How does it shoot?

Well, it shot well before 3 shot groups have achieved 1/2 moa at 200 yds (although 4th and 5th if fired tended to open things up). What I wanted was improved ability to hold zero under changing climatic changes to the wood and to bring those 4th and 5th shots into line (groups literally went 1,2,3 then printed 4 and 5 elsewhere) ok I know sporter barrel but this is not opening up generally its 4 and 5 close together but elsewhere than the first 3.

Having re-established zero and using the less favoured 40 grain Seirras over my favourite 45's. the first two 5 shot groups printed 0.85" and 0.95" at 150 yds. Moving things out to 200yds the first group achieved 2.47" then 2.12" and finally produced the better 1.53" again all for five shots and shot rapidly. I did not even let the gun cool between groups and it was pretty hot at the end of those 15 rounds and heat of the moderator was not helping the sight picture to much either. The important thing was they all formed nice balanced groups without forming what might be called "split groups". Moving back to 100yds now I placed two 5 shot groups for around 1/2" (not measured) and then placing some 45's (its favoured bullet) back in the mag it shot a three shot screamer with brass that's past its best and powder charges thrown without weighing.

So time will tell if the day to day zero holds better, but it looks like I have achieved what I wanted as regards consistency over the 5 rounds (given the skinny barrel it aint half bad to be fair). I never really expected the 3 shot groups to tighten (so never tried) and to be truthful I don't think I shot my best after laying a large concrete slab in the morning with 16 bag of stone and then taking a 2 hr long walk with the dog prior, there is just some things I cannot do quite so well as I could 20 yrs ago LOL

I have the same rifle have you Got any pictures of what you've done please Kent?

[kent]

Gaps are different either side of my barrel Karl, mines also been glass bedded round the action. I'm gonna take a bit out the barrel channel at some point to even out the gap.

 

Don't its a bedding fault, this is why we wrap the barrel in electricians' tape tight into the channel. Most bedding compounds will warm and soften with a hot air gun (or even a powerful hairdryer sometimes) get it to an even flow if you can and re-fit the action with the barrel suitably centralised by tape wraps. If you paid for the service take it back and get them to sort it.

The barrelled action cannot be square to the stock and this will effect the gun during recoil. Taking wood out the forearm will also spoil the guns aesthetic balance.

[kent]

I think it's the balance.

Will try a reflex mod at some point when my licence turnes back up.

 

Meaning you find it harder to hold in the aim? fair enough its the downside to moderators. I use the T12 Scout on mine and find it balances nice off hand but feels ungainly and a tad too long for many other stances. My plan is to eventually take the barrel back as far as possible, in theory the Hornet with LilGun powder only needs 15-16" for full powder burn (so with the scout just a little off the end of the forearm, enough to allow for future re-threads sounds good).

 

I don't go for Harmonics IF THE BARREL THREAD IS GOOD AND THE BACK BUSH (ignore the back bush in your case if its not already a reflex fit). Moderators by view of their weight will lead to flatter harmonics and flatter is better (basically it reduces the whip). Passing closer to one baffle side than another via a mis centred thread, over slack or off square back shoulder is my best guess, in which case your wasting your cash on a moddy change.

[Dunkield]

Looking at how flimsy the stock on my 527 Lux was, I just bought one from Richards and dropped the action into that

[kent]

I have the same rifle have you Got any pictures of what you've done please Kent?

 

Sorry bit of a luddite on posting pictures.

[kent]

Looking at how flimsy the stock on my 527 Lux was, I just bought one from Richards and dropped the action into that

 

Yes, I have done many a stock swap and considered another Mac Millan but I do like the CZ American stock on the hornet it just plain suits the gun. That said some of those Lux stocks (especially the older ones) are very nice. Besides it can make a cheap to purchase factory rifle into a dear one very quickly

 

In time (the gun is not 3yrs old yet) I shall modify the original stock by adding a Thumb grove, larger adjustable recoil pad with better shoulder adhesion and add a deep oil finish, highlighting the grain with alkernet rather than the teaky looking polyurethane finish over bear wood that CZ now use.

 

Even a well inlet carbon composite stock benefits from a synthetic bed for better fit, though I shouldn't bother with pillars on such a stock on a hunting rifle the gain is just not there in such a stable material (my own .243 sits in a Mac Hunter and what I term a "skim -up" bedding job), injection moulded plastic and over moulded stocks like those by Houge belong in the bin IMO. Such stocks are bettered in stability by Laminates by a mile and the original Walnut if on pillars.

[bicykillgaz]

 

Don't its a bedding fault, this is why we wrap the barrel in electricians' tape tight into the channel. Most bedding compounds will warm and soften with a hot air gun (or even a powerful hairdryer sometimes) get it to an even flow if you can and re-fit the action with the barrel suitably centralised by tape wraps. If you paid for the service take it back and get them to sort it.

The barrelled action cannot be square to the stock and this will effect the gun during recoil. Taking wood out the forearm will also spoil the guns aesthetic balance.

I've got a set of pillars I can have a play with at some point but not confident of doing a decent job so kept putting it off.

 

I didn't bed it the previous owner did, if I can heat it up will I need to apply a release agent to it first? I'm guessing I will. I've glass bedded a rimfire stock before which was pretty straight forward as you say just tape it up for spacing and fill any gaps with plastercine to avoid mechanical locks!

 

I might buy another tub of Devcon and just glass it and forget the pillars. if it turns out good I'll help you two do yours Karl/Nick.

[Dunkield]

While on topic, can I just ask what you use Fister?

I want to secure the recoil lug in my Tikka and was going to use plastic metal?

[bicykillgaz]

Devcon 'a' plastic metal putty, pretty sure fister suggested it to me when I asked before doing my rimfire. It's very easy to use.

[kent]

The mass of the moderator on the end of the barrel effects the barrel harmonics kent. If the bloody mod isnt tight on the threads and that is vibrating during the barrels oscillation then you are really 'screwed'

 

As for bedding compounds that can be warmed with a hairdryer to correct alignment issues..........what are you using, toffee?

 

I rarely respond to kents posts as it just descends into arguments but the ADVICE he so freely prescicribes is frankly laughable at times.

 

Although bedding compounds viscosity when 'in the pot' and pot times (curing speed) can vary slightly with temperature, they are thermosetting polymers and once cured, only degrade disastrously with heat, they do NOT soften and re-mould like a THERMOPLASTIC can move

 

I beg to differ, most will soften. How do you remove a glue in BR rifle or a mechanical lock in - with heat!!!!!!!! Apologies I did assume the guy might test how much it softens in the stock at worst its sure a lot easier than removing the whole hard mass- how much it will or wont soften depends on the stuff (hysol will hardly soften more than to get a glue in out) Acraglas I have softened dramatically however, centainly enough to remove with very little hard use of tools (got a lock in years ago, most do this at least once early days). I have never actually tried re-fitting but cannot see any harm in trying if it gets to the correct fluid state all the guy need do is test it and see (it either re-sets or otherwise). removing wood is not the best way that is 100% for sure. I am not a chemist but when I get chance I will try a few compounds used in bedding for re-setting just to further my own knowledge of the subject, rather than rely on second / third hand stuff.

Still as in we do in filling bubble voids etc. there is always the grind it out and fill it in way (this time with everything centred)

You do respond a lot actually that why I use the useful ignore function only in this case as I started the thread I think it best I look at what accusations you are making against me this time in the thread I started

I fully mentioned it making harmonics flatter all you have to do is read, the issue is also mentioned as most likely occurring in the threading. If the accuracy is rattling the harmonics our getting closer to one baffle or another is debatable and also un-provable, a bullet need not strike a baffle to become de-stabilised that is know by otherwise good OD centred threading jobs rather than ID centred. Still changing the moddy is not very likely going to cure things.

 

Maybe you personally might describe how you bed a rifle with your own fair hands? I have seen a lot of different do and don'ts and much discussion on how another is wrong when it comes to this work, but the pudding is in the eating. And its best to speak to the Chef himself first hand if you think its bad. Do you actually do this?

[Amazed]

Don't upset him again Chris he only just come back

[kent]

Pay me £200 for every thousand words and £25 a picture and i will happily explain it to you kent.

Oh, and i did mention heat breaks them down destructively once cured chemically

No come on tell us of your own work on guns Mr Google. That's a poor rate BTW, is it honestly that bad now?

[Amazed]

Slightly off topic, but how good are the standard walnut Remington 700 stocks for bedding ?

I had a look yesterday and it does look a little flimsy lol.

[kent]

Kent I already do but do you really want to know about my work on guns? You have previously expressed opinions on it so I presume you already know all about it .

 

Oh, BTW, my degree is in Materials Engineering and Polymer science, I would never suggest I can remember it all, I found it very dull and followed a career outside the industry but please don't imagine I Google these facts. Anyway, must dash, I really must organise my passport and luggage for the trip to the CZ factory near Prague on Sunday!

 

Wow! I never went to uni ( but then again few did of my generation) but served my time in the Engineering trade trying to explain to graduates the difference in theory and practice can be vast. Do you actually or have you ever worked in this area?

[kent]

Slightly off topic, but how good are the standard walnut Remington 700 stocks for bedding ?

I had a look yesterday and it does look a little flimsy lol.

 

The main action area is quite good and the 700 is the easiest gun to bed IMO. The only question is shaped pillar tops or flat top? I prefer the latter having done it both ways. Flimsy depends on which model of Walnut stock and relates to the forearm more than the bedding area. there have been lots over the years. adding a pressure bed at the tip was done a lot in the 70's but not many do that now, preferring free float

[kent]

No, i found it too theoretical and it didnt iterest me. Instead i went directly into manufacturing and in the great circle of things i now work for a plastics company, running the computerised machining department. My inventive nature has happily led to my involvement in bringing this machinery to the company and involving its precision into all aspects of the business from on-site jigs for manual workers 'fixxing' to volume manufacturing of bulk use products and tool making for the workshops. Yes, i also instruct and train other staff members in all manufacturing tasks the business is involved with.

 

I have undertaken many firearm projects on both my own and the rifles of my friends. These include trigger jobs, inletting and other stock work including bedding and refinishing various stocks and action types. I learned on my own gear! I have re-barrelled a rifle myself too! I have written cnc milling programs to inlet mag feed bottom metal into rem 700 actions, several of which have been supplied to forum members although i choose not to pimp that work out as it is in conflict with gunsmiths who can charge £45 per hour on foing it manually. The process has also been adopted by the manufacturer themselves and i know many 'smiths simply send stocks to them to have it done. Im involved in firearm and component manufacture from at least three companies who seek my technical advice and opinions on it as well ( no i wont name them as i have non-disclose agreements in place). Thats before we come to photographic work for advertising features and i must answer the phone 2-3 times a day from PW members who are seeking reloading advice that have heard my mame on the PW/pm grapevine. I'm no great white hunter and rarely talk about hunting as i only mention elements i feel knowledheable abou but can shoot pretty damn well and i wont blow my trumpet any further to prove these points. There is of course one element i havent even mentioned

 

Good enough for you?

Strange coz I do remember you

[DaveK]

Oh dear. So I happen across this topic and find our Mr Personality spouting his usual testicles.

 

KENT. Stop Googling and go out and do some shooting. The only person you're impressing is yourself. Wake up and realise that the more you spout, the more you show yourself up.