Working Tests - rules query

[Cushat]

I've only done a couple of tests in the past and ran my 2.5 year old lab in a novice test on saturday. It was held in the beautiful grounds of Stratfield Saye and should have been a great day. First 3 tests were fine, not perfect, but I scored a 19 and two 17's and knew areas I'd need to improve on.

 

However, it all went wrong on the 4th test! A double with a mark over a river and a blind along the bankside with the blind being retrieved first. She ignored the mark and I got her back along the bankside OK. Wasn't perfect and she needed a bit of handling as she wanted to hunt in the linseed along the edge of the bankside (probably as she'd just picked a dummy from the linseed field in one of the earlier tests). I stopped her a couple of times on the whistle, pushed her back but she wasn't quite going far enough to wind it, so I blew the stop whistle and shouted her name to make sure I had her attention properly, held her for a minute then sent her back again. Dummy picked, job done.

 

On her way back to me the judge says "Unfortunately I'm going to have to give you zero for that as you shouted at your dog". When I questioned this his justification was that "it wouldn't be fair on the other dogs who did stop on the whistle". OK, so I shouted firmly, but wasn't ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination! Knock me a few points off if I'm not as sharp as some of the other dogs/handlers!

 

Very much one sided from my point of view I know, but a few points that strike me:

 

1) She'd already stopped on the whistle a couple of times in this test. 3rd time it wasn't immediate which was prob why I felt the need to shout her name to get her attention.

2) Does that mean every dog that judge sees that won't stop on the whistle gets a zero - I think not!

3) I can stand there and shout "BACK" loudly and frequently as many times as I want and don't get a zero (maybe marked down a bit for over handling but not a zero??), but I shout her name once and it's all over???

4) Went on to pick the second dummy no problem, so effectively we succeded on the trial and scored nowt!

5) "Our" performance in that particular test was far from perfect, I know that and wouldn't expect a 20, but we did successfully complete it and in good time so it was incredibly demoralising to get a zero.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's it for tests! I've not got the right temprament for it! I can see why running in or whining or other serious faults get a zero, but it seems so subjective at times and talking to/handling my dog shouldn't warrant a big fat zero?

 

Or should it - comments welcome???

[cracker]

Thank you for the account of the test--sounds like you had a good run, subjective or not, and that it was more enjoyable than not, too.

 

Please don't get disillusioned. Enjoy the dog's work, and if it meets your expectations--placement or not--consider the day's been a smashing success.

 

Inevitably, to rationalize why you'd keep running tests and trials, it's down to what *you* think of how the dog's done that counts, not the judges' appraisal. My then 2-year-old Lab ran her first open field trial a while back and the first series was a "quad"--four birds down at distances of up to 425 yards. She picked all four with panache, but I got dropped because one of the judges scored her down for having "popped" in cover five feet tall. Au contraire, she's a smaller dog and was bounding through it! The judge happened to have caught sight of the top of her head--stationery for a second as she turned back after scenting the last bird. Of course, it's subjective.

 

But what makes it more so for you all's tests and trials is the laxity/leeway such as

3) I can stand there and shout "BACK" loudly and frequently as many times as I want and don't get a zero

 

Less subjectively, it ought to be a single command of Back! and the dog's off to the retrieve, nonstop and straight away. But that's for your judges and the KC to work out. Till then, d*mn being out for a duck, it's back to the crease you go. Don't be dismissive of tests or testing via not having the temperament to run them--your account above foretells that you have a real feel for and interest in them. Your description of the test, and your acknowledging your dogs' shortcomings along with its strengths--well played. Now get back in there for another innings.

 

MG

[Jeff B]

3) I can stand there and shout "BACK" loudly and frequently as many times as I want and don't get a zero

 

Firstly let me explain, the 'Back' command is exactly that, a trained command, the same as handlers use 'get out', 'get on', 'hi lost', 'there', etc., etc. Your use of your dog's name was a form of reprimand because the whistle was failing, call it an attention getter if you like but it is essentially a reprimand. This is not permitted and falls under the catetory 'noisey or inappropriate' handling which in a field trial is a major fault and will get you eliminated. Too many 'BACKS' can also fall into this category depending on the circumstances.

 

That said, it is not specifically listed in the 'J regs' Working Test section, as a serious fault and so, along with many other areas is left to the discretion of the judges. It does, however, state in the regs.,

 

"A multiple retrieve constitutes one test. If a dog fails or commits a serious fault in any part of the multiple exercise this will result in a mark of zero for that particular exercise".

 

As a judge, and in the circumstances you describe I would certainly mark you down but a zero seems a bit harsh for a novice test unless it was a very loud shout in which the judge could have regarded it as entirely inappropriate and therefore considered it a serious fault. But, I wasn't there.

 

Judging tests and trials is not black and white.

 

Neverthe less, it seems you and your dog were having a good run and you shouldn't let this incident put you off. Some twenty or more years ago I was on the receiving end of a bad decision at a field trial and old and experienced field trialer remarked to me "If you can't take it, don't do it". I didn't let it get me down and have subsequently had many enjoyable years competing in tests and trials.

 

Jeff

Edited July 22, 2008 by Jeff B

[Cushat]

Chaps,

 

THanks for your comments - was good to be able to look at it from the other side and try and understand the day a bit better. That helped a lot. I still think it was a harsh descision, but as you say, it's never black and white, and I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think I know better than the judge.

 

And at the end of the day, even if judges aren't consistent amongst themselves, all the dogs on the day had the same judges and the same tests and I'm sure the best dog/handler took home the trophy.

 

I think I probably fall in to the "can't take it" category though - maybe one day I'll have thick enough skin to not let things like this bother me, and to be able to see the day as a big training exercise without giving a jot about the scores, but until then there are plenty of things me and my dog can be doing which give us as much pelasure and satisfaction but without the pain that apparently comes with tests/trials!

 

Thanks again.

[dusk2dawn]

Having been involved for many years both in tests and trials, I wholeheartedly agree with what has been said and one of your comments sums it up perfectly, each time you go out its a learning curve, a training session for the next one. The handler has yet to be born that knows everything and is perfect, we are all learning and coming across different scenarios each time.

 

Your dog may well be "hot" on some occasions and you have to work harder to overcome this, the biggest problem I have seen is the tendancy for some handlers to "overhandle" and not allow the dog to do its work,they get very excited almost to boiling point waving arms and repeating commands.

 

The day out should be fun,and if you get a place then its a bonus but always learn something from the day, and next time..........

 

:unsure: D2D

[pavman]

3) I can stand there and shout "BACK" loudly and frequently as many times as I want and don't get a zero

 

Firstly let me explain, the 'Back' command is exactly that, a trained command, the same as handlers use 'get out', 'get on', 'hi lost', 'there', etc., etc. Your use of your dog's name was a form of reprimand because the whistle was failing, call it an attention getter if you like but it is essentially a reprimand. This is not permitted and falls under the catetory 'noisey or inappropriate' handling which in a field trial is a major fault and will get you eliminated. Too many 'BACKS' can also fall into this category depending on the circumstances.

 

That said, it is not specifically listed in the 'J regs' Working Test section, as a serious fault and so, along with many other areas is left to the discretion of the judges. It does, however, state in the regs.,

 

"A multiple retrieve constitutes one test. If a dog fails or commits a serious fault in any part of the multiple exercise this will result in a mark of zero for that particular exercise".

 

As a judge, and in the circumstances you describe I would certainly mark you down but a zero seems a bit harsh for a novice test unless it was a very loud shout in which the judge could have regarded it as entirely inappropriate and therefore considered it a serious fault. But, I wasn't there.

 

Judging tests and trials is not black and white.

 

Neverthe less, it seems you and your dog were having a good run and you shouldn't let this incident put you off. Some twenty or more years ago I was on the receiving end of a bad decision at a field trial and old and experienced field trialer remarked to me "If you can't take it, don't do it". I didn't let it get me down and have subsequently had many enjoyable years competing in tests and trials.

 

Jeff

 

well put Jeff

 

first test I ran in (puppy) i went out 2nd test a walk up with gunshot behind and onto a blind (direction of gunshot) dog did not go far enough back soi I called her in and re sent, got failed for calling the dog right back to me :unsure: i did not understand the basics but you soon learn, unfortunately its not easy to find out what is or is not OK in advance, I spent a long time on the phone to the Kennel club to try to find out “the rules†if only it was that easy, the good news it you wont do it again but rest assured everyone else has had a similar experience and it wont be long before you watch others make the same mistake and go out whilst you progress to the next test

Edited July 22, 2008 by pavman

[cracker]

It does, however, state in the regs.,

 

"A multiple retrieve constitutes one test. If a dog fails or commits a serious fault in any part of the multiple exercise this will result in a mark of zero for that particular exercise".

 

Wow, Jeff, you never told me you now got multiple marks coming into play--what-what's this "Americanization" bidness that your tests are coming round to? :unsure:

 

Actually, democracy being what it is, in US tests and trials it's the stated aim of the judges (and the rules) to give every dog and handler the exact same scenario. Save for where the actual shot birds fall, which cannot be achieved with such precision. And for the preceding poster, those rules are spelled out with lapidary language. Sort of the opposite of the J regs and the FT rulebook I got from the KC a couple years back. But again, it's horse courses for Porsches or whatever it is you lot like to say.

 

MG

[Jeff B]

It does, however, state in the regs.,

 

"A multiple retrieve constitutes one test. If a dog fails or commits a serious fault in any part of the multiple exercise this will result in a mark of zero for that particular exercise".

 

Wow, Jeff, you never told me you now got multiple marks coming into play--what-what's this "Americanization" bidness that your tests are coming round to? :unsure:

 

Don't get too excited Mike, for multiple read double, could be two marks, two blinds, one of each or mark/blind with distraction, rarely is it a any more

 

Jeff

[Cushat]

Well, I listened and learnt and though and couldn't help myself - I entered another test at the weekend

 

And we got a fourth, with only four marks between us and winning. Still love the way different judges score differently (one knocked me 2 for heelwork in one test and the other awarded me the fulll 20 in the walk-up) but you never know, I might yet enter a few more!!

[Jeff B]

Only just noticed your post so, congratulations.

 

As you understand more and more you will get the bug for competing, the pay off is you will become a better trainer, your dog will become more efficient and you will meet a lot of likeminded people in the process.

 

..............and before you know it you will be looking toward field trials :o

 

Jeff

Edited August 25, 2008 by Jeff B

[cracker]

..............and before you know it you will be looking toward field trials

 

Otherwise known as a cumulative "Gotcha!" moment. Congratulations on your test placement...and empathy with the judging.

 

MG

[Quist]

Is it a good gun dog? Are you happy in the field? If so, let it wash over you and enjoy working with the dog.

If its medals and certificates you're after, take it on the chin and try again because some days, doing you're darndest, you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue.

Don't rely on luck but accept it when it comes.

[Cushat]

Only just noticed your post so, congratulations.

 

As you understand more and more you will get the bug for competing, the pay off is you will become a better trainer, your dog will become more efficient and you will meet a lot of likeminded people in the process.

 

..............and before you know it you will be looking toward field trials

 

Jeff

 

And ran her again this weekend - starting to become a habbit!! Got a second and only 2 points off the winning dog. Chuffed to bits

 

Ta for the support

 

Quist - yep, she's a good gundog and I'm happy with her in the field but I don't want to sit back and say"that's it, she's trained now, nothing more to do". I want to keep pushing her (and me) and tests give the close-season training some focus.