Nial Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 David, this is primarily meant for you. I'm a member of the BASC as as such 'have insurance'. I know this covers third party liability liability, but what is this? I believe it covers claims against a farmer arising from me shooting on his land if I am responsible. Is this the case? If this is the case it's a good bargaining point when looking for shooting permission, how is this easily explained to a farmer? I could take along the 'BASC Insurance Policies' booklet but it's not exactly clear and simple. I need an A4/A5 summary explaining my cover and how it affects him. I've trawlled the BASC site lookign for a summary of what's covered but can't find anything like this. Is there any chance of having something like this put together? (This probably applies to all shooting organisations). Thanks, Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 (edited) Nial, It wouldn't cover claims "against" the farmer but it would cover claims against you by the farmer (or anyone else as a result of your shooting activities on the farm). BASC used to run an excellent "Woodpigeon and Rabbit Control Service" in collaboration with the NFU and MAFF (as it then was) and part of the publicity materials that all BASC clubs could get to hand out to farmers in their area was a very clear guide to the insurance cover. That was one of the big selling points in persuading farmers to use BASC members for pest control and a lot of us got most of our pigeon and rabbit shooting through that scheme. It also included posters that members could get from BASC to put up in Agricultural Marts, farm suppliers etc, advertising the service and giving their BASC club contact details and also large postcards that the clubs could distribute directly to farms so that the farmer could keep the contact details beside the phone for when he needed help. The scheme seemed to get into disuse when Dennis Graham Hogg (who ran it from Marford Mill) retired but I am sure that David will be able to find the insurance leaflet. It might be worth an update and reprint (as the insurance cover is much higher and more comprehensive than it was in those days.) Eric Edited October 29, 2008 by Pinkfooty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Sorry for the delay in responding, I am on holiday this week and can’t get access to a computer every day. If you injure someone or cause damage to property, and this is a result of you failing to take proper care then you are liable to pay that person compensation. Within this also, if the person needs to go to court to get their money or if they need to get expert opinion to confirm their level of loss and they incur a cost in doing so, you are liable to pay for their costs. In essence it covers you if someone sues you for damage they say you have caused when shooting. It also pays for legal defense if someone makes a spurious claim against you of course. We do publish a summary, called a Key Facts document and this is sent to you with your renewal. If you need another one please call Kathy in my office on 01244 573017 and she will post you one. There is also a copy on the BASC web site here: http://www.basc.org,uk/content/insurance in pdf format Contrary to what Pinkfooty says the policy will protect the farmer as well. This is a clause called Indemnity to Principal, and is a very important clause in the policy. If you accidentally shoot someone on the farmers land, the injured person can sue you obviously, they can also sue the farmer for allowing the activity to take place, and this is when this clause really earns its corn! Yes having insurance can help you to secure shooting, I do not know any farmer round here that would dram of letting uninsured shooters onto their land and why should they? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8landy Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 It also pays for legal defense if someone makes a spurious claim against you of course. David Is this the answer we have all been looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Not quite mate, the public liability policy pays defence costs for Civil claims, not claims under Criminal law, Common Law, etc. Still looking into the other insurance need. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Contrary to what Pinkfooty says the policy will protect the farmer as well. This is a clause called Indemnity to Principal, and is a very important clause in the policy. If you accidentally shoot someone on the farmers land, the injured person can sue you obviously, they can also sue the farmer for allowing the activity to take place, and this is when this clause really earns its corn! That's interesting (and welcome) David. It is not mentioned in the Key facts document and might be worth adding as it would certainly be something to show to farmers when looking for permissions. By the way, the link in your post will not work. This one should: http://www.basc.org.uk/content/insurance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Further to above David, I was intrigued by some of the correspondence on another thread about legal costs insurance. There seemed to be a suggestion that insurance provided by another organisation might give indemnity against legal costs in criminal cases. My understanding of the law in Scotland (and it may, of course, be different in England) is that no contract (which would include an insurance contract) can be enforced if it relates to an illegal act or activity. So, if someone was charged, and found guilty, of an offence, would any insurance policy have to pay out for the legal defence? Or is the other organisation's insurance being misrepresented or misunderstood? (As you say, representation in a civil case arising from a claim while shooting or engaging in any of the other activities covered by the BASC policy would be covered provided there was no illegal act being committed by the policy holder at the time.) The gap. of course, is in cases where a member hits a brick wall with the police in connection with a certificate application or renewal and that is where the BASC Firearms Team can very often sort things out without any legal action being required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I will add this clause to the KF document at the next print David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted October 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Sorry for the delay in responding, I am on holiday this week and can’t get access to a computer every day. No problem David, especially if you're supposed ot be on holiday. If you injure someone or cause damage to property, and this is a result of you failing to take proper care then you are liable to pay that person compensation. Within this also, if the person needs to go to court to get their money or if they need to get expert opinion to confirm their level of loss and they incur a cost in doing so, you are liable to pay for their costs. In essence it covers you if someone sues you for damage they say you have caused when shooting. It also pays for legal defense if someone makes a spurious claim against you of course. We do publish a summary, called a Key Facts document and this is sent to you with your renewal. If you need another one please call Kathy in my office on 01244 573017 and she will post you one. There is also a copy on the BASC web site here: http://www.basc.org,uk/content/insurance in pdf format I've got that, it's not really what I'm looking for to shove under a farmer's nose though. Contrary to what Pinkfooty says the policy will protect the farmer as well. This is a clause called Indemnity to Principal, and is a very important clause in the policy. If you accidentally shoot someone on the farmers land, the injured person can sue you obviously, they can also sue the farmer for allowing the activity to take place, and this is when this clause really earns its corn! This is what I want spelled out in BIG letters, this should be _very_ persuasive if a farmer's having doubts. Yes having insurance can help you to secure shooting, I do not know any farmer round here that would dram of letting uninsured shooters onto their land and why should they? But having the BASC policy that covers them in the case of a claim is even better. Is there any chance of having an A5 flyer created that highlights this point? Leaving room on it for the shooters name & contact details would be good too. Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I will certianly work on that , A full copy of the policy wiording is on the site and available from kathy aswell if you need it. I can also custom write a covering letter for you if you want? If so please e-mail me at work - david.ilsley@basc.org.uk with your membership No and I will do the rest on Monday David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted October 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I will certianly work on that ,A full copy of the policy wiording is on the site and available from kathy aswell if you need it. I can also custom write a covering letter for you if you want? If so please e-mail me at work - david.ilsley@basc.org.uk with your membership No and I will do the rest on Monday David David, I'm OK with covering letters but will email you directly to continue the discussion on what I think would be useful. Nial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanClark Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Hi Pinkfooty I'm happy to confirm that our SACS legal insurance does cover the cost of defence in both criminal and civil cases, anywhere in the UK. It has happily provided expert legal representation for refusals to renew or amend certificates and failure to renew them, and has also defended a number of members who have been charged with such things as 'reckless discharge', breaking conditions on a certificate and Wildlife & Countryside Act stuff - usually successfully! I don't claim to be an expert in insurance law, of course - I leave that up to the real experts - but I understand that the position is that there is no legal difficulty in paying for a defence until or unless a court finds the individual guilty of the 'alleged' offence. By that time, all of the fees have been incurred and paid. I hope that clears up the position. Ian Clark Director, SACS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Although this has nothing to do with the original post it is interesting none the less. I would have been very surprised if it had been any other way. Perhaps Ian, to help you members and prospective member’s you would publish a policy summary of your liability and legal expenses insurance on your web site. It is normal for a Before the Event legal expenses product to keep covering costs up to the point the case ends, or the point that the costs exceed the level of cover (then it is done to the individual to carry on funding) or if new evidence comes to light and the chance of success falls (for example) below 50%. The Ministry of Justice has a very good report on legal expenses cover on their web site is anyone is particularly interested. It is also worth looking at your home insurance policy – most home insurance policies have LE cover….check what it does cover you for. Most home insurance polices also have liability insurance cover as well, that will cover shooting! Some insurers of shooting organisations insurance policies use this very fact to cut payouts on their policy. i.e. when the claim is made, they ask if you have home insurance- if you do the claim is then made against that policy and NOT your shooting organisation policy…nasty surprise eh-, especially if you have joined that organisation because they offer cheap insurance! So what exactly have you paid for?......Check it out! OK I know some of you will be lining up now to say this is just BASC being horrible to everyone else- NO IT IS NOT ! I have said time and time again that when you are buying membership and thus insurance from BASC, CA, NGO, SACS, SGA, CPSA and so on (sorry to all those I have missed) please check the policy wording to make sure you know what you are covered for – you do NOT want a nasty surprise when you come to claim. SACS have the before the event legal expenses cover, no one else does..yet- if you had joined another organisation thinking you have LE cover in place it will be a nasty shock – Winchester will confirm! Similarly if you have joined an organisation for their low cost shooting liability cover, and when you make a claim they walk away and refer the claim to your home insurance- again not nice. It does not matter who you support as long as you support one of the shooting organisations. All the organisations offer something different so take your pick - but let us all try to be very clear about what is and is not covered. – Putting decent summaries on our web sites would be a start I guess. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkfooty Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 most home insurance policies have LE cover…. David, But not for criminal defence. My home insurance will cover legal expenses if a slate is blown off my roof in a gale and kills the postman who is, at that moment, putting my BASC magazine through my letterbox, and his widow sues me. My home insurance will not cover legal expenses if I shoot the postie in protest at him putting junk mail from the CA through my letterbox! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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