thank you some great advise. dont think there was a timing issue last time. she made it clear that she wasnt ready on two occasions but she then stood for him almost begging him to mate for 6 days we tried leaving them together alone , with us helping but he just could not get any penetration. on the occasions that he was close she squeeled qnd pulled away. they are both first timers and both now coming up to 41/2. certaimly no lack of effort from him or willingness from her but do0nt seem to fit ha ha . thet are a good match sise wise, he is 1/2 inch over show size and she is bag on. think we really need an experienced breeder with us