Prioritise these rifle brands

[rjimmer]

How do you arrive at a figure of 40% for a .308 being more obnoxious than a 6.5mm?

[dunganick]

6.5 for some reason, i dont know why, i dont think anyone does, is renound for being a low reoil round, it why its so popular, its not just that it runs lighter bullets than hte 308, becuase ive tried my dads 6.5 with 140's and a 308 running 145's i believe it was, and the 308 (both sako 75's) belted me

 

40% is just a guessed figure, the 308 certainly has more recoil for the ammount of lead it throws and the speed it does it. it has its places, but these are more with the die hard target shooters than british stalkers or pest controllers

[Big Dog]

Hey Nick impressive guns?? on your post (pics 05) Are these all your??

[dunganick]

not me personally, my dad, only 3 are mine and 1 airgun

 

there is also 1 missing from the pic

 

(im not really here, im in my last lesson of the day before i go round a mates and then get up for a coach at 3.45 tomorrow morning )

[Subsonic Flyer]

personally i would give the 308 a wide birth, you will have trouble getting it as a sole vermin round, more likely as a round which you can shoot vermin whilst deer stalking, which for those foxers out there is no real use. they are common, everyone has them (contridicting myself here, oh well) so they arnt intresting, they arnt exceptionally accurate (although a select few guns are)

I appreciate this thread is old but I have just read it and I have one thing to say to your comments on the .308. What a load of tosh.

 

The .308 is one of the most popular calibres in the UK for a good reason. It simply works well.

 

As for not being accurate it has been and still remains the choice of snipers world wide for up to 800 yard engagement. It has won more 600 and 1000 yard competions over the years than any other calibre. The .308 is revered as one of a few inherantly accurate calibres that just has that magic. "Why" is a topic that has been flogged to death on almost every reloading site and a poor shooting rifle in .308 is the exception not the rule.

SF

[dunganick]

308 was a very popular callibre and in many sense's still is, but mainly by the die hard red stalkers, it is more gun than is needed, yes its very good at 800m because of its large projectile weight, but at 100 yards there are 6mm rounds which will shoot cirlces in the middle of its groups (in general, obviously you can get any round to shoot accuratly, its just how easily they do this)

 

i know alot of shooters whom had the 308 for fallow and reds and are now selling them becuase they are more gun than they need. its the same case as the 32g loads, you hardly ever see a clay shooter using 32 gram loads 24,28 and 30g are far far ore popular. it might well be a fad, but people no longer seem to like the big rounds with much felt recoil. hense the birth of all the wildcat 6mm rounds.

 

as for it being a snipers choice, firstly i was under the impression (could very well be misinformed) that most modern sniper rifles are now being produced in the .338 lap mag. as for it being great at 800 yards, great, now i can snipe people at 800 yards untill the cows come home. much past 300 is pushing it on a fox with any gun, too many variables. so this long range ability is of no use.

 

i am not argueing the past popularity of the 308, but it is seeing very hard times at the moment with now increasingly favoured rounds such as 25-06 6.5x55 and all the other 6mm - 6.5mm incarnations.

[kip270]

biased i know but my .222 tikka 595 de luxe is a joy to shoot, cracking walnut stock, trigger is crisp and the overall feel :thumbs: , no regrets at all

[Subsonic Flyer]

I get the impression that you are an armchair critic. By the way you compose your replies I doubt you have shot many deer or have any practical experience of long range shooting.

 

as for it being a snipers choice, firstly i was under the impression (could very well be misinformed) that most modern sniper rifles are now being produced in the .338 lap mag. as for it being great at 800 yards, great, now i can snipe people at 800 yards untill the cows come home. much past 300 is pushing it on a fox with any gun, too many variables. so this long range ability is of no use.

 

To shoot well at long range you need a rifle that is very accurate. An accurate long range rifle by definition will be an accurate short range rifle.

 

308 was a very popular callibre and in many sense's still is, but mainly by the die hard red stalkers

 

Having participated in and witnessed the shooting of hundreds of deer I can assure you that the .308 is not to much gun. I have seen to many deer shot with light calibres to know that they do not die as quickly even with a well placed shot. I have experienced it myself. I have lung shot numerous deer perfectly with a .243 and other light fast calibres to see them travel in a few extreme cases up to 200 yards before collapsing. The same shot placement with a .308 or other similar medium calibre rarely sees them travel more than 50 yards. A slightly off shot with a light calibre will often mean an injured deer and a slow death where the same shot with a heavier calibre will often result in a kill.

 

The primary concern of a stalker should be the quick and clean dispatch of his/her quarry. Light fast rounds have less kinetic energy, cause excessive meat damage and are often lacking in penetration due to their explosive nature when coming into contact with heavy bone.

 

i know a lot of shooters whom had the 308 for fallow and reds and are now selling them because they are more gun than they need. its the same case as the 32g loads, you hardly ever see a clay shooter using 32 gram loads 24,28 and 30g are far far ore popular. it might well be a fad, but people no longer seem to like the big rounds with much felt recoil.

 

Fortunately clays do not feel pain!! I have great respect for my quarry and a little more (although a .308 is considered by most to be mild - my wife and 14 year old son both shoot mine) felt recoil as you put it is a small price to pay for a quick clean kill.

 

6mm rounds which will shoot cirlces in the middle of its groups (in general, obviously you can get any round to shoot accuratly, its just how easily they do this)

 

There are many .308's out there that will shoot 0.2" - 0.3" groups I would like to see anyone shoot circles inside that? The 6mm Wildcat cartridges are for the dedicated reloader and benchrest guns. You try buying rounds for your 6mm Dasher over the counter. This is after all a hunting forum. It is not appropriate to compare the accuracy of 6mm target variants and benchrest guns that weigh two or three times a hunting rifle, supported at both ends with rests with the rifles used by most members of this forum. Most 6mm wildcat target rounds fail to meet the legal minimum energy requirements for deer anyway.

 

i am not argueing the past popularity of the 308, but it is seeing very hard times at the moment with now increasingly favoured rounds such as 25-06 6.5x55 and all the other 6mm - 6.5mm incarnations.

 

Tosh !!

The .308 remains the most popular centre fire calibre in this country and many others with the most guns produced in it and ammunition sales.

SF

[dunganick]

very well, if your .308 happens to shoot like a bench rest gun at 100yards that is down to the individual handloading and having a good gun, as i said in my previous post ".... obviously you can get any round to shoot accuratly, its just how easily they do this" the .308 will not in generaly be so easy to find an equally accurate handload for it as say a .243 .223, just one of those things, it can be done, but inheritly (spelling?) there are much more accurate rounds. (this is why 100yard bench rest shooters dont normally go for the .308)

 

okay so the 308 is an accurate round at long range, this dosent make it a very popular sniper round. and more over as you said in your last post , this is a "hunting forum", so why would you require an 800 yard effective range, we dont have prarie dogs over here.

 

Having participated in and witnessed the shooting of hundreds of deer I can assure you that the .308 is not to much gun. I have seen to many deer shot with light calibres to know that they do not die as quickly even with a well placed shot. I have experienced it myself. I have lung shot numerous deer perfectly with a .243 and other light fast calibres to see them travel in a few extreme cases up to 200 yards before collapsing. The same shot placement with a .308 or other similar medium calibre rarely sees them travel more than 50 yards. A slightly off shot with a light calibre will often mean an injured deer and a slow death where the same shot with a heavier calibre will often result in a kill.

 

The primary concern of a stalker should be the quick and clean dispatch of his/her quarry. Light fast rounds have less kinetic energy, cause excessive meat damage and are often lacking in penetration due to their explosive nature when coming into contact with heavy bone.

 

i completely agree, the quarry should be our upmost concern, however this is yours and maybe others opinions. however i know many stalkers who wont use a 308 becuase of meat damage and they believe that it is too much gun for fallows, and reds.

 

this is your opinion, your welcome to it, but ive shot with and occasionly stalked with one or two very experianced stalkers (one who makes his living stalking) whom wont use bigger than 243 for anything other than red, and for reds he uses .270 and still dosent like it becuase of meat damage.

 

Fortunately clays do not feel pain!! I have great respect for my quarry and a little more (although a .308 is considered by most to be mild - my wife and 14 year old son both shoot mine) felt recoil as you put it is a small price to pay for a quick clean kill.

 

very true, again quarry's quality of life is the shooters main concern, if having a gun which makes a person fear taking a shot and in turn develops a twitch, causeing them to make a poor shot, this gun is not worth a light. if a clean kill can be achived through the use of a lower recoiling round (which by many accounts it can) then this is a much better solution. (yet again, it is opinion, i peronally, being still a small person, would deffinatly not like to shoot a 308 all day long off the bench, nor even in a competition.) if there is one thing for certain it is this, when stalking you will be pressented with odd positions to shoot from, and if you are fearing a love kiss from the scope then you will not shoot your best, and in turn might mess the shot up. (if this does not affect you then sobeit, its your choice and the quarry is your responsibilty, and im sure you cope fine, just not everyone is you)

 

There are many .308's out there that will shoot 0.2" - 0.3" groups I would like to see anyone shoot circles inside that? The 6mm Wildcat cartridges are for the dedicated reloader and benchrest guns. You try buying rounds for your 6mm Dasher over the counter. This is after all a hunting forum. It is not appropriate to compare the accuracy of 6mm target variants and benchrest guns that weigh two or three times a hunting rifle, supported at both ends with rests with the rifles used by most members of this forum. Most 6mm wildcat target rounds fail to meet the legal minimum energy requirements for deer anyway.

 

i never said a bench rest gun, just a round that was developed for the bench. there are many rounds as im sure you know which will quite easily make the legal minimum requirements when loaded correctly, but granted some of the smaller lower capacity ones will not.

 

just becuase a round was designed for a bench rest gun does not mean it is not produced in a sporting rifle. besides many bench rest competitions have a sporting class, i shoot a sporting bench rest competition and only one of the guns i use is a heavy barrel gun and that is a rimfire, so all of them are sporters for the 100yards bench rest.

 

And they will shoot better than 99% of .308's at 100 yards. yes some .308's shoot amazing groups, but this is in a bench rest gun as you very accuratly described is not at all suitable for the field. where as the sporters in other calibres will shoot very nearly as well whilst keeping the weight down to a sensible level. which can be used in the field.

 

supported at both ends with rests with the rifles used by most members of this forum

 

thought you said it was a "hunting forum"?

 

i reserve judgement on the current popularity of the .308, there are many on the market second hand, and all the smaller rounds, 6mm br (not always deer legal when loaded down) 25-06, 6.5x55 etc etc are very very popular at the moment. it might well be a fad, and the old work horse .308 might well fight back on the "hunting scene" in the next few years. personally i doubt it will ever be as popular as it was a few years ago.

 

i have no fight with you, i gave my opinion to this topic, backed up by my experiance, both first hand and observed, this is my opinion, becuase you disagree does not make it wrong (unless i have got my numbers etc wrong, in which case i oppologise) but this forum is for people to ask questions and get both sides of the argument, your welcome to put your opinion down, im bound to disagree becuase its not my opinion, however calling my statements "tosh" is not needed. after all we are both in the same game, no need to go killing the sport from the inside.

Edited November 12, 2005 by dunganick

[Subsonic Flyer]

dunganick

I appreiate your point of view and on reflection my "Tosh" comment was a little harsh, my appologies. I hope we will be able to discuss other topics in the future and on this one we will have to agree to disagree.

SF

[dunganick]

i agree

 

no worrys, its what the forum is for, people get to see both sides of the story and can make their own decisions up from it :thumbs:

[kip270]

http://www.riflebarrels.com/about/default.htm

 

If you want to know abot the .308 check out this site and look at the long range articles :thumbs:

[Gemini]

Been reading through this and really didn’t want to get involved with the argument over which calibre is best.

Over the years I have shot many different rifle/calibres and have always had a love of the .308. It comes with an inherent accuracy (sorry Nick but I can’t understand where you get your thoughts from) and will shoot into 1 MOA with almost any sort of rifle.

I had an old P17 which was over 70 years old. It had been re-barrelled and chambered from its old 30-06 calibre to .308. It was a lovely rifle to shoot and would hold the X ring at 600 yds provided I did my bit. :*)

I used to shoot foxes with it prior to 1996 using 110 grn JHPs using 45 grns of Reloader 12. This was a soft load and was extremely accurate out to 200 yds, which was as long a shot as I really wanted on foxes.

Alas once Hamilton had done his filthy deed it became defunct, as my local FEO wouldn’t allow me to use it on fox any more. :< I could have argued, but it was just as easy to buy a .222 for the job.

.308 too much gun for deer :thumbs: Never heard that one before.

G.M.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Gemini

[dunganick]

fair enough mate, your opinions.

 

personally 1moa is not accurate enough (again each to their own) ive seen many 223's 222's etc that will just shoot 1/2 MOA out of the box, no running in, no hand lapped barrels, just a choice of good quality factory amunition. i dont think anyone is ever going agree over the .308 accuracy thing, it obviously has its place, i just dont feel (as do many) that it is on the 100yards sporter bench rest scene, and as such there must be more inheritally accurate smaller rounds which people are using, 6mm br etc... .

 

the stalker whom i shot with, who said this was a bloke from the west country, cant remember exactly where, but he was running a professional outfit, so i pressume he knew his stuff better than most. he told us that he would discourage anyone to use anything bigger than 243 for roe and he used .270 for reds and fallow, but still felt that for fallow this was too much, and destroyed too much meat. us having only the 6.5 becuase we were on holiday and fancied some stalking as well, felt a bit guilty (after roe), but no shots were taken that day so it wasnt an issue.

 

i still stand by the little cartridges, but i dont think everyone will ever agree on this.

[Subsonic Flyer]

dunganick

 

Please don’t see this as having a go, my apology still stands but I am interested in your thoughts.

 

The .270 ( 130g 17 ft/lbs) has considerably greater recoil than the .308 (150g 14 ft/lbs) and is famous for its meat damage due to the higher velocity. The only advantage over the .308 is a slightly flatter trajectory. You rarely if ever see the .270 used in competitive shooting as other calibres are just more consistent.

 

Excessive meat damage is common with all higher velocity rounds (.243, 25-06 257W etc) The .308 being a larger round at a slower velocity produces a larger entry and exit wound but the surrounding tissue is much less effected. Having skinned hundreds of deer I can almost guarantee what the exit side of the carcass shot with a high velocity round will be like - excessively bruised from haunch to shoulder. This is rarely seen with a lower velocity round like the .308 or 6.5x55.

 

To clear up a point, the recoil difference between the 6.5x55 and the .308 when using the 140g v 150g bullets is minimal (13 ft/lbs v 14 ft/lbs) and would be difficult to distinguish between the two.

 

I shoot in the Westcountry on a semi professional basis and would probably know this gentleman you mention? Having served in the army for a number of years I can assure you that the .223 is not considered a more accurate alternative to the .308. Assault rifles in .308 are difficult to manage on fully automatic and the change to .223 was to overcome this issue and the need to cary more rounds for the weight but at a cost. Range, penetration, knockdown power and greater influence from environmental factors (wind, altitude, temperature etc.

 

 

You keep mentioning that there are many other calibres providing greater accuracy than the .308. Do some research on the net, the .308 has won more competitions than most. Military and law enforcement snipers have had their pick of calibres for years but still favour the .308. For long range engagement + 800 yards yes the .338 LM and .50 cal rifles have proved their worth but the .308 still remains the choice for medium range engagement.

 

I am interested, you say you are involved in sporter benchrest, what sort of groups are you achieving? I take my target shooting seriously and would be interested to compare. If you have any images of your targets I would appreciate seeing them.

SF

[dunganick]

my envolvement in sporting bench rest is only at a club level, our club has recently introduced a competition every meeting for some item of chocolate or some such, so i am by no means a pro bench rest shooter. i have a few groups on my wall, one 5 shot .222 @ 100 and one 3 shot 6.5x55 again at 100

 

i will measure them in a second.

 

concerning the recoil on the 6.5, the 6.5 is a very strange round and has some unique characteristics which make it for some reason very low recoiling. i am personally not aware of why, but it has a reputation for having a very low recoil for its bullet weight. ive tried the 6.5 with a 140gr nosler A max (was our target round of choice for a long time) and have also tried a (same rifle make and manufactuer) 308 with im told a 145gr soft point, it was some factory ammo, so i just nodded and shot, dont really know much else other than weight. have to say that the 308 was nasty to use, it didnt bite me on the eye brow, but it certainly made me think about where my eye brow was on the next shot. (maybe this round was running hot, but it was not disimilar to all the other 308's ive used, uncluding all the iron sight target guns)

 

the .270 ive used (only one) chambered in a remmy 700, was a very low recoil round, it wasnt as low recoil as the 6.5 but was certainly lower recoil than the 308. i have next to know experiance with this round, i was just saying what this stalker uses on reds. i would not be supprised if the owner of the 270 i used would be running a light bullet, he does like his fast rounds and dosent care much for barrel life.

 

will make an edit once i have measurements for groups. sorry i only have the two, but i dont often keep targets as they are shot on useless paper and have tairs (spelling?)

 

edit***

 

okay, 6.5's 3 shot group is

 

.508

-.264

=.244 correct me if im working these out wrong

 

222's 5 shot

 

.437

-.224

=.213

 

and the stalker i went shooting with was peter samways (not sure on exact spelling)

Edited November 13, 2005 by dunganick

[MC]

I am going to stick my oar in here, My father used to shoot for essex and england with full bore target rifle, he used two rifles both 7.62 or .308 win whatever you prefer. one of them was a parker hale and was only consistent at ranges to 500 yards, the other was an Enfield SMLE which was accurate at ranges from 500 - 1200 yards.

 

There is far more to making an accurate rifle than calibre, there is rifling twist length of barrel whether the chamber is hot and the round is sitting in it heating up, which means altering ballistics and trajectory.

 

While this reply is about target shooting, at the end of the day accuracy is accuracy and that is what counts. You can't kill your quarry at any range if you can't hit it in the first place.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Gemini]

The P/H is probably a Mauser action and therefore more accurate at ranges up to @ 600 yds. This is because the front locking lugs on the bolt make it a stiffer action and therefore potentially much more stable in firing.

The Enfield has an Enfield action which doesn’t have front locking lugs and is only held at the rear of the bolt by the rear-locking fixings. This makes the action a very flexible action and although this means it is a little unstable (and therefore less accurate) at shorter distances, it makes for a very accurate longer range rifle.

This is why the Enfield T4s were able to hold there own, and even win against the Swings and Paramounts at 900, 1000 and 1200 yds, and even now they are often used for the longer range competitions by some of the older shooters.

And all in 7.62/.308.

Nick, I find the .270 to be a pig of a rifle to fire. Too loud, too fierce and too much damage to meat. As you say it’s all down to preference, but experience does have a major part to play as well. Maybe in a few years time when you have had the chance to enjoy a few more shots with a hand-loaded .308, you will change your mind. :thumbs:

G.M.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Gemini

[dunganick]

maybe mate,

 

i will be orgaising a day at bisley for next summer soon, it will be a morning of rifle shooting (100 yards) followed by an afternoon of shooting the amazing sporting layout they have down there. (assuming numbers are good enough and people are willing to put down a deposit to cover pull outs)

 

maybe if you can make the trip i can experiance a properly handloaded .308

 

hopefully by then i will have my own first centerfire as well, can stop having to use the old mans guns and ammo :thumbs:

[Devilishdave]

I fail to understand how a rifle can be inaccurate at close range yet accurate further out by simple triganometry it does not make sense please explain surely a group of 100mm at 100m is a group of 1000mm at 1000m apart from the potential for fluctuations in wind aon the longer range shots. and by the same reasoning a 20mm group at 100m should equate to a 200mm group at 1000m.

 

I have watched army snipers burst water mellon at 1000m with the 7.62mm so it is not all bad thats for sure

 

Dave

[dunganick]

its not that they are inaccurate at short range, its just that they arnt as accurate, however when it comes to longer range shooting, the heavier bullet resists breezes better. where as say a little 50grain bullet from a 222 would be getting blown about all over the place, so it might be very accurate at 100 yards, but at 1000 it will be all over the place. surely someone can give a better explanation than me, this is only the basics of it, there are all kinds of other reasons which a heavier bullet it prefferable to a light one, i just dont know them :thumbs:

[Devilishdave]

It was more of a question to martincavie who was talking about to 7.62 rifles one accurate to 500 and the other accurate 500 -1000.

 

I am fully aware of the fact that ligter ammunition slows down quicker due to less kinnetic energy and is subject to be blown off more by the wind.

 

Dave

Edited November 13, 2005 by Devilishdave

[Gemini]

It’s mainly to do with the flexing of the action.

If a .308 round is loaded to perfection and then replicated over and over, then you will have a very consistent batch of ammo’. However, even this can’t guarantee perfection and this is where the flexible action of the Enfield comes into its own.

When a charge varies from one shot to the next, this is actually counteracted by the amount that the action flexes, which actually seems to even the shots out, making the rifle shoot very well at distance due to the fact that the longer the distance the more time the bullet has to stabilise.

A Mauser action is much stiffer and therefore inherently more accurate, so it will not need to have this built in stabilizing effect that the Enfield action has.

This means that the Mauser will shoot better at shorter distances because it will be more consistent, whilst the Enfield action won’t be starting to stabilise until it has started to extend past the 600 yds distance at which point it begins to become more accurate. :thumbs:

G.M.

[Subsonic Flyer]

dunganick

Those are impressive groups you mention but we have all had them including me with my out dated .308. I would always be reluctant though to quote a single group as mine or the rifles ability. Example to follow. Everyone gets the occasional fantastic group but it is generally not repeatable. To evaluate my reloads I always as a final check shoot 3-5 groups and take an average. This is the true ability of the combined factors.

 

The image I have attached was shot a few months ago to evaluate a hunting load. I was not intersted in placement on the target only group size. The result was excellent but I am realistic enough to know that it is very unlikely to be repeated. I would not dream of quoting this one off as any more than luck unless I could consistantly repeat it. I have come close to it a couple of times but not close enough. What are your averages?

SF

[dunganick]

thats a fine group indeed for the range. ive only shot 500 yards once, and certainly came nothing near that, but i was just shooting for V's.

 

what power scope is that, i know power isnt everything with scopes, but it sure as hell helps at ranges like that.

 

how do you find the prohunter? was your correctly floated when you got it, is it the model with the 3 stage safety/set trigger? seen some impressive groups from them, despite the stock touching the barrel.