Dating a Tolley...

[Jonno243]

Evening folks,

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me in roughly dating a beautiful J&W Tolley s/s that I managed to pick up this afternoon? I understand that the Tolley premises were bombed during WW2 and that all records etc were destroyed, but if anyone could offer guidance on the proof marks I would be much obliged.

 

From my interpretation of the marks as it stands I have the gun being proofed in Birmingham originally, and then re-proofed (again in Birmingham) for Nitro in 1976. I am however a rank beginner at reading proof marks, and was hoping that someone a bit more clued up would be able to offer some advice on reading proof marks?

 

My thanks in advance,

 

Jonno.

[Vince Green]

What are the original proof marks? BP or nitro? Is it a round action?

Edited September 28, 2010 by Vince Green

[Jonno243]

Vince Green,

 

It is not a round action, but I am getting slightly confused now as it exhibits proof marks from the 1925 rules (13/1; crown over BP, BV, NP; 12/C in diamond) but also proof marks from the 1989 rules (I guess this was the reproof; 18.6; crown over BNP; 12-65 and 850bar), my confusion comes from the crossed swords with B on the left, C on the right and 1 underneath (which led me to believe it was reproofed in 1976 as per the letters). To make matters worse it looks like there is a reproof mark from the London house (the very ornate crown over R signifying reproof after modification), and a set of marks that I cannot identify (straight vertical bar on the left, and what looks like a candlestick on the right)!!!

 

I am trying to get decent photos taken to show in more detail, but is it possible that it could have been proofed 3 times? Originally in Birmingham, London around 76 following modification, and again in Birmingham post '89?

 

I assume that Proof Houses retain their records, but I am curious if they will divulge dates of proof?

 

This is all very confusing......

[Vince Green]

I don't think the proof houses keep records that would relate to the gun. I have never heard of anyone getting a date from the proof house. It could have been proofed three times, but you would have to work out why. There are plausable explainations, first time new, second time because somebody was doubtful about the barrels probably because of pitting which was virtually normal in those old guns, third time when it was rebarrelled because of the pitting.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Vince Green

[GBS]

I don't think the proof houses keep records that would relate to the gun. I have never heard of anyone getting a date from the proof house. It could have been proofed three times, but you would have to work out why. There are plausable explainations, first time new, second time because somebody was doubtful about the barrels probably because of pitting which was virtually normal in those old guns, third time when it was rebarrelled because of the pitting.

 

Surely you wouldn't have the previous proof marks if it was re-barreled? Or has it been sleeved?

 

G

[Vince Green]

Surely you wouldn't have the previous proof marks if it was re-barreled? Or has it been sleeved?

 

G

Yes because the barrels go inside the breech block which is reused unless is it is too worn and has to be replaced. They just replace the tubes. The proof marks are on the breech block. If you look on most shotguns you can see the join where the barrels and the breech block are joined about 3" along the barrel.

[GBS]

Yes because the barrels go inside the breech block which is reused unless is it is too worn and has to be replaced. They just replace the tubes. The proof marks are on the breech block. If you look on most shotguns you can see the join where the barrels and the breech block are joined about 3" along the barrel.

 

That is sleeving, not re-barreling.

 

G