Guest cookoff013 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Hey folks, i love cartridges and ballistics (mainly the first 4 inches). its a passion and i`d like to give a review and breakdown of the cartridges i often use. it gives an insight as to how the cartridge manufacturers do it, and what is the the ballistics that make them tick. the first i`ve dissected is hull comp x 21g #7.5. why this one? well i`ve got some shells. so here we go.... first of all its a 12gauge shell, in 65mm 12 gauge i`m just guessing that the primer is a hot type, a cx2000 or fio 616. its the hotter .209" shotgun primer (because the powder charge is low and the lead is low) the lead was weighed, and came to 20.7g thats good enough for me. the shot looked very poor, about 5% was dented. the wad consisted of a plastic, one piece..here is the exact one. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lightning-12ga-7_8oz-Wad-250_bag/productinfo/020L078/ the, powder is a green disc, the powder charge was a good 15.7 grains (this is quite low) (i`m guessing that its this powder) http://www.nobelsport.it this is a great shell. hull, keep em coming! Edited August 27, 2011 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandspider Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I am a big fan of the Comp X range. I use the 28g mainly as I don't find the 21g much lighter recoiling in my O/U. I didn't realise quite how low recoil the 28 gram were until I used a mixed batch of Comp X and Eley First (both 28g fibre wad) in my semi auto. The Hull were lovely to shoot, though the recoil was so delicate the gun had a few failure to cycles. Then I popped in a few Firsts (which I've used in my O/U before with little felt recoil, probably because it's a heavier gun) and Boom! Barrel thrown into the air, barrel slammed hard into the action and into my shoulder, clay hit(!). Surprisingly large difference in recoil - I think I read somewhere there's only a grain or so difference in powder weight between the two carts, though can't remember where I saw that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 there would be a different powder for the 28g loads. the powder for the 21g is way faster. the main point of these topics are, i like to understand what manufacturers are producing. that load uses very little,very fast burning powder. thats why they are cheap. (and the low mass of lead.) these 21g loads dont need much effort to go 1400fps. i expect they loaded it down to get 1400fps ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandspider Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I was comparing the 28g Eley Firsts and 28g Comp X. I read somewhere on here (I think) that there was only one grain difference in powder weight between the two, but the Firsts recoil much more noticeably. If you'd like to dissect a 28g Comp X and a 28g First, I'd be interested to know what the difference is that makes the Comp X recoil so much more softly? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I was comparing the 28g Eley Firsts and 28g Comp X. I read somewhere on here (I think) that there was only one grain difference in powder weight between the two, but the Firsts recoil much more noticeably. If you'd like to dissect a 28g Comp X and a 28g First, I'd be interested to know what the difference is that makes the Comp X recoil so much more softly? Cheers. i dont have any of those cartridges, but i`ve a few interesting facts... reducing the payload, has a greater effect of recoil reduction, than reducing the speed, but reducing both has a unified effect. if you hae a 21g cartridge going 1100fps (very easy) then that would be the lightest cartridges ever. thats almost sub sonic and has a limited payload. i can say that it may be shot one handed ! the ammount of powder never comes into the recoil equation , because some (x) amount of grains of powder is being dumped as pressure not velosity. but the pressure is needed for velocity. faster powders dont recoil more, the just burn faster, giving up energy faster. lighter payloads need faster powders to keep pressure up, heavy payloads need slower powders to keep the pressure down. the comp x wad, has a huge compression part. (that will have an effect on recoil.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandspider Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 the comp x wad, has a huge compression part. (that will have an effect on recoil.) Thanks, duly noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune82 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) I always thought fast burning powder produced more percieved recoil becuase it accelerated the shot charge more rapidly. I thought slow powders gave it more of a progressive push and therefore gave less percieved recoil. The total recoil force may be the same but the faster powder distributes the forces over a shorter time period than slower powders. The weight of the powder charge will also have a slight effect on recoil as recoil is a result of the combined mass and velocity of all material ejected out the muzzle. The powder is projected out the muzzle as gas, more powder suerly means more gas? Edited February 2, 2011 by fortune82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 from a chemistry point of view, the gas produced from 20grains of powder, shouldnt weigh more than 20grains. nothing has been added or taken away. it just changes chemical compesition. -gone into gasseus format. faster burning powders just give higher pressures relative to the payload. there are recoil calculator equations, they dont ever have a burn rate calculator. will 1 grain of powder be more gas? yes ! exactly one grain of gas. but you will never notice, because the payload will vary always with shotguns 400 -odd grains per oz, when shot charges will vary up to 15-30grains (yes- really !) so that kinda negates that argument. unless you have an exactly pan weighed shells, a recoil mesuring machine, and alot of patience you`ll never notice the diffence. most shells have an estimated fps on the box. i bet a good proportion never get there. and some continental shells dont even have the advertised shotcharge ! some are short by upto 2 grams ! so comparing shells by what they say on the box, is very silly. (thats why some people get confused) just because it is written down on the box doesnt mean it true. what does have a great effect on recoil is the compression section of wads, the more compression, the more energy is being transfered into the shot over a *slightly* longer time. so for those guys who got lost in my ramblings, for a light clay load use enough powder to get 1100fps, get the wads with the best and largest compression section, use a light 21g (3/4oz) payload, and just for safetys sake keep the pressure at high to burn right. there are some wads i wouldnt touch with a barge pole. most steel wads dont have a compression section. thats why the recoil. good luck keep on shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COACH Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 The best cartridge on the market in my opinion. I`v been using the 21g for just about everything (clays) since I first found out about them. But both 21g + 28g are without doubt THE softest cartridges on the market, yet quite fast. You really don`t need all that lead and recoil to break clay targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Im still hanging in there for some pattern pics of thoughs 1/2oz steel pigeon shells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) The wad is a B&P T2 wad, often called the Z27 or H27 in the trade. They have been around for some time. I first saw them 18 years ago in the Lyalvale Excel, Supreme and Super Comp 24gram. http://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=298&Itemid=199&lang=en To my knowledge, Hull use Fiocchi cases/primers and not Cheddite. Although, times are changing! Edited February 2, 2011 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Im still hanging in there for some pattern pics of thoughs 1/2oz steel pigeon shells @ fowler me too. i just cant get the right primers. i`ve been using up my mild ones and the recipe calls for the HOT type. i`ve been itching to give e`m a go. they also brought out a lead version of that shell. 5/8oz going 1700fps. now thats just silly. @fc those hulls are cheddite, for the comp x. they dont have the hull stamp. they have stars instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 @ fowler me too. i just cant get the right primers. i`ve been using up my mild ones and the recipe calls for the HOT type. i`ve been itching to give e`m a go. they also brought out a lead version of that shell. 5/8oz going 1700fps. now thats just silly. @fc those hulls are cheddite, for the comp x. they dont have the hull stamp. they have stars instead. I've seen some 19gram steel shells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I've seen some 19gram steel shells. me too, for a 12gauge though. interestingly, the powders for both the lead and steel 12gauge load are the same. titewad. ballistics is fun stuff. the speeds of these light payloads are awsome. it doesnt take much to get the speed up. but it takes a huge effort to get the pressure good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 I have a tub of the powder from Comp X cartridges, someone reloaded their hulls with black powder I think and ditched the powder, I have it, 750g! I also have some 65mm comp x hulls, so I thought I would put the powder and cases together. Once again, I only have size six shot available So I was thinking 16 grains, 3/4 oz shot, fibrewads and my unknown primers.... Recipe for disaster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 I have a tub of the powder from Comp X cartridges, someone reloaded their hulls with black powder I think and ditched the powder, I have it, 750g! I also have some 65mm comp x hulls, so I thought I would put the powder and cases together. Once again, I only have size six shot available So I was thinking 16 grains, 3/4 oz shot, fibrewads and my unknown primers.... Recipe for disaster? yes a recipe for disaster. dispose of the powder, to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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