Marking tips?

[straightbarrel]

Well thanks for all the informative replies! I've picked up a lot from this

 

My only minor hiccups at the moment are: she tends to play with the dummy if she catches it by the string,(I'm going to cut it off!), half the time she will drop a canvas dummy at my feet,(yet to drop a dead bird though so that's reassuring) and the other night she discovered cow **** for the first time which took over her interest!

 

Getting there slowly though! Cheers again!!

Personally I would get her spot on with the canvass dummy or whatever traing dummies use use first before anything else, she is carrying the dummy to you so I would make sure to get a delivery to hand all the time otherwise it wont be long before she starts dropping game at your feet mate.IMO

[wildfowler.250]

Personally I would get her spot on with the canvass dummy or whatever traing dummies use use first before anything else, she is carrying the dummy to you so I would make sure to get a delivery to hand all the time otherwise it wont be long before she starts dropping game at your feet mate.IMO

 

Cheers! Any suggestions then? I've tried taking a step back and getting her to pick it up again. Generally if I take the funny straight off her on return she doesn't get a chance to drop it,(but I shouldn't have to do that!).

[straightbarrel]

Cheers! Any suggestions then? I've tried taking a step back and getting her to pick it up again. Generally if I take the funny straight off her on return she doesn't get a chance to drop it,(but I shouldn't have to do that!).

If she's bringing it to hand and offering it up, take it. Dont give her the chance to fail. If it were me, I would try to get her close with it and before she drops it, either take it, or if you can, stroke her softly and with little fuss on the chest and under the chin while she is holding it, then with one hand quietly and softly try to remove the dummy. The longer you can stroke and praise her, with the dummy in the mouth, the better. IMO.

 

If you can stomach the self obsessed snobbery of a hanful of ham shankers and their boasts of what they have regarding land, property and everything else materialistic, then have a look on the gundog training forum for some usefull tips mate. You might have to wade through some **** to find what you are loooking for....pictures of peoples gardens, extensions, newly turfed lawns etc.

Edited December 1, 2011 by straightbarrel

[kent]

Cheers! Any suggestions then? I've tried taking a step back and getting her to pick it up again. Generally if I take the funny straight off her on return she doesn't get a chance to drop it,(but I shouldn't have to do that!).

 

Its not a case of should,t have to, just plian shouldn't. Dog has dummy in mouth dog gets a fuss / reward, dog spits dummy at feet dog gets dummy kicked and command repeated with encouragement and no reward till dog holds it, then dog gets fuss / reward. Dog still refuces to pick up dummy with a little kick and repeated command and hold onto it, owner again repeats command and walks off ignooring dog and dummy. Dont be too quick to take the dummy -ever , work up to the stage that the dog is sitting infront with dummy in mouth awaiting reward and only after that relieving of the dummy and another reward on the command Dead, give whatever.

Leave cold game till delivery sorted IMO

[straightbarrel]

Its not a case of should,t have to, just plian shouldn't. Dog has dummy in mouth dog gets a fuss / reward, dog spits dummy at feet dog gets dummy kicked and command repeated with encouragement and no reward till dog holds it, then dog gets fuss / reward. Dog still refuces to pick up dummy with a little kick and repeated command and hold onto it, owner again repeats command and walks off ignooring dog and dummy. Dont be too quick to take the dummy -ever , work up to the stage that the dog is sitting infront with dummy in mouth awaiting reward and only after that relieving of the dummy and another reward on the command Dead, give whatever.

Leave cold game till delivery sorted IMO

I honestly dont think giving the dog a kick is in any way helpful. Truth be known, all the basic stuff should have been in place by this stage, if you are directing lefts and rights and at the stage of trying to improve on marking, you would normally expect the recall, sit,sit/stays, and retieves to be already in place. I'm guessing the pup is 8-10 months or so?

Edited December 2, 2011 by straightbarrel

[WGD]

Its not a case of should,t have to, just plian shouldn't. Dog has dummy in mouth dog gets a fuss / reward, dog spits dummy at feet dog gets dummy kicked and command repeated with encouragement and no reward till dog holds it, then dog gets fuss / reward. Dog still refuces to pick up dummy with a little kick and repeated command and hold onto it, owner again repeats command and walks off ignooring dog and dummy. Dont be too quick to take the dummy -ever , work up to the stage that the dog is sitting infront with dummy in mouth awaiting reward and only after that relieving of the dummy and another reward on the command Dead, give whatever.

Leave cold game till delivery sorted IMO

 

Equally don't set the dog up to fail, if you know the dog has a tendency to spit and it comes right in and doesn't spit, take the dummy! Don't leave it sitting looking for the perfect delivery and have the dog spit when it was close to succeeding - you can build on success. It's good enough for Edward Martin, so it'll do for me.

[straightbarrel]

Equally don't set the dog up to fail, if you know the dog has a tendency to spit and it comes right in and doesn't spit, take the dummy! Don't leave it sitting looking for the perfect delivery and have the dog spit when it was close to succeeding - you can build on success. It's good enough for Edward Martin, so it'll do for me.

 

Spot on.

Edited December 2, 2011 by straightbarrel

[kent]

Equally don't set the dog up to fail, if you know the dog has a tendency to spit and it comes right in and doesn't spit, take the dummy! Don't leave it sitting looking for the perfect delivery and have the dog spit when it was close to succeeding - you can build on success. It's good enough for Edward Martin, so it'll do for me.

 

I think that would depend on the dog, quick deliverys can get so quick dropping actually develops, its another tactic that will work with some dogs. I do believe it is created by quick snatching by the owner / handler. It would certainly be wrong to wait around for the perfect sitting delivery but it is something to work towards, a shuufle back and a rub under the chin might be the first hurdle. Our American friends are very keen on Force Fetch and my own take on this is working on the "hold" and "release" commands without the toe hitch, ear pinch etc. My wire was a blighter for spitting the dummy and it can be flustating at times, you just have to play things as you find them and do what works.

Thing is you will find it hard to reward for holding onto the dummy with the all essential timing if the dogs a quick spitter and you do want a dog that holds on till you can take the bird in the field or on exiting water retrieves

[straightbarrel]

Take a look at approx 3 min 30 seconds onwards.

 

Edited December 2, 2011 by straightbarrel

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks guys, given me 2 different options that I can go for!

 

The dog is 7months roughly. Anyway she will bring dead birds, socks ect back no problem. I just don't think she is fussed for the canvas dummy.

 

Basically she will rush out bring the dummy back. Now if I go in as soon as the dog reaches me I can get the dummy out of her mouth. As soon as she stop, she drops it!! Tbh I'm thinking af something along the lines of Kent's approach without booting the dog sounds right. Really shouldn't be having to be rushing

 

Just to add that the only birds she's retrieved are ones that have been hanging up and I thrown out 15 yards.

 

It's unbelievable frustrating I don't have any intentions of trailing the dog so I don't need her perfect. But there's no point in training her incorrectly either!

 

Cheers!

 

Apologies for the poor punctuation! It's tricky on my phone!

 

 

edited to say: making an excessive fuss,(like I should be going off to a looney asilum) seems to make her keep hold of the dummy. I'll persevere

Edited December 2, 2011 by CZ452

[cracker]

Tbh I'm thinking af something along the lines of Kent's approach without booting the dog sounds right.

 

CZ, on Kent's behalf - and somebody needs to speak up for him because he's got the US stuff so skewed - he's not talking about booting the dog, but the dummy. At least I hope that's what he's alluding to. Give the dummy a little kick and command the pup to pick it. Then command "Hold!" as the dog turns to present it. Corollary to that you can always repeat the "hold!" command as the pup approaches on its return with the thrown dummy, too. That's how it's done in the States, where pups learn the "conditioned" hold before they undergo force fetch. That means they're already retrieving, so in the why, in Kent's unanswered quandary, would you ever you ever force fetch a retriever?

 

If this pup's retrieving ducks at 10 weeks old - and delivering to hand, as she was,

 

 

as she's retrieving geese at 7 months - and delivering to hand, as she is,

 

 

why would you ever undertake force fetch with her?

 

Back over to you, Kent - waiting with bated breath for more "second-hand" straight-from-the-Internet insight.

 

Meantime, CZ, be patient and keep up with the repetition of the "hold!" command. Also keep your head, and keep your voice firm but unthreatening. And keep your hands - and feet - off her. The pup will get it - without any need for force fetch or harsh corrections at all. She's already demonstrated to you she likes having a bird in her mouth - she's a retriever after all. The rest is for you to shape her retrieving as you want it done. You may not have to do any more shaping period, if all you're seeking is a reliable delivery. (That's a hint, Kent - first-hand...)

 

MG

Edited December 2, 2011 by cracker

[arwen3513]

yep thats the way i read it give the dummy a kick not the dog

have you tried turning away as she approaches and asking her to walk to heel holding the dummy

will she take it out of your hand on a hold command and then walk with it at your side.

just help slow the whole delivery down a bit gives you time to think and talk quietly to the dog and then you can request a sit in a calm voice, as she gets better you can try leaving the dog at the sit position holding the dummy walk away and then return.

she is not then looking for the next bit of action or in a rush to move on for the next retrieve.

jan

[wildfowler.250]

Again guys, brilliant advice!

 

Don't worry, I haven't booted the dog. Just thought a telling off when she dropped it wouldn't go wrong. I'll update in a week or 2 how she is coming along and I'm going to refer back the the comments for tips

 

Aside from a,"when she's ready" answer. What age would you normally introduce a lab to actual shooting? I was thinking 1 year or so assuming all is good and well. I have no need to rush her at the moment.

 

 

Cheers again!

[straightbarrel]

When she's ready. IMO

[cracker]

Aside from a"when she's ready" answer. What age would you normally introduce a lab to actual shooting? I was thinking 1 year or so assuming all is good and well. I have no need to rush her at the moment.

 

CZ, here's the beauty of it if you went the "Americanized way" of introduction to the gun (which itself is foolproof). Your original thread's about marking tips, and teaching the dog how to mark. We kill two birds (or dummies) with one stone: While you restrain the pup, a helper goes out at a distance - say 50 yards for a pup - throws a dummy and shoots a blank pistol whilst the dummy's in the air. Again if you use a white dummy the dog will follow it more intensely (obviously) and all but disregard the gunshot at that distance. At the same time, the shot starts to signify to the dog that something's falling from the sky, so it sits intently watching and waiting to hear the shot that goes with it. In short they welcome the gunshot as a mnemonic that "it's a bird, it's a plane, it's...a retrieve! - and I get to make it!" So you send the pup for the mark and she goes like this -

 

 

- and better yet comes back with the same zestfulness for delivery. Because they never know but that you might give them *another* retrieve, and what's the greatest reward for a Lab? Yes, another retrieve.

 

After this kind of introduction to the gun, shooting over a dog in a hide or whilst picking up becomes a fait accompli for the dog - no bother, and no fear whatsoever of inducing gunshyness.

 

MG

Edited December 2, 2011 by cracker

[straightbarrel]

Get her used to the basics first mate then introduce her to marking/following ground scent at short distances, increase the distance bit by bit, if she needs help with it, keep sending her back, make sure you have her somewhere she cant move to the left or right, an alley or similar with a tennis ball rolled along the ground. She will find ground scent easier to go on. Once you have her understanding 'back', chuck the dummy and increase the same way and direct her the same way. She will need more directing with a thrown dummy.

Edited December 2, 2011 by straightbarrel

[cracker]

Multiple marking a quarter of a mile away. :o :o :o I'd love to see a video of that Cracker if you've got one? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Bringing this back 'round for you, Gill -

 

though at these distances you won't see much, but you will see how outrageous US FTs can be. Not always, but often. The verbiage that goes with the video reads:

 

Western Montana Retriever Club Spring 2010 Retriever AKC Field Trial. This video shows the Open land triple. Order was long middle retired mark, right hand short retired mark and go bird is the far left flyer. ... The long retired mark was lazered at 450 yards down a ravine."

 

One of the last trials I ran in spring, the long bird - long "retired" bird in the parlance and No. 3 of a multiple - was 523 yards by the rangefinder (laser) and also uphill! (And my British Lab "nailed" it, bless her little Tory soul.)

 

Meanwhile, CZ are you (and your dog) making any marking progress?

 

 

MG

Edited December 6, 2011 by cracker

[straightbarrel]

Not sure thats the 400 or 500 yards you mentioned but this seems to be a pre-primed area anyway. If you walked a decent gundog half a mile and dropped one then walked it back regularly enough in the same situation at the same place, it would retrieve no problem. Marking birds at distance on unfamiliar land is when it becomes a bit tricky. Different situations and areas. I would bet the lab in the you tube film could have had someone covering it's eyes before sending it and it would have still retrieved the goods. This does not prove that the dog is an exceptional marker nor does it prove the training is exceptional either.The vantage point also make things a little lot easier. Not taking anything away from the dogs,they do as they have been trained to do.

Edited December 6, 2011 by straightbarrel

[kent]

Not sure thats the 400 or 500 yards you mentioned but this seems to be a pre-primed area anyway. If you walked a decent gundog half a mile and dropped one then walked it back regularly enough in the same situation at the same place, it would retrieve no problem. Marking birds at distance on unfamiliar land is when it becomes a bit tricky. Different situations and areas. I would bet the lab in the you tube film could have had someone covering it's eyes before sending it and it would have still retrieved the goods. This does not prove that the dog is an exceptional marker nor does it prove the training is exceptional either.

 

 

to be fair it certainly looks that far, yes its a little contrived but thats what you always get with any tests. I do not agree with the same place and same situation comment and expect any gundog worthy of the name to be more than capable of being sent this far and farther on memory retrieves indeed training for it covers many bases ; confidence well away from handler and great exersize being by no means the least.

[straightbarrel]

to be fair it certainly looks that far, yes its a little contrived but thats what you always get with any tests. I do not agree with the same place and same situation comment and expect any gundog worthy of the name to be more than capable of being sent this far and farther on memory retrieves indeed training for it covers many bases ; confidence well away from handler and great exersize being by no means the least.

 

Building a dog up over a relatively short period of time to travel these distances is not a hard excersise IMO and we were talking about marking birds down at distance in a real situation. I would be very dissapointed if i could not get a spaniel or a lab trained from an early stage to go out in long straight lines with the odd bit of sheep-dogging to these distances. Taking a dog to a memory drop and walking it back, increasing distances each session would take care of the dog taking a line out, the distance is however far or however near you want it to be. Once you have a dog happy to take a line out at distance it's then up to the dogs nose and your handling or sheep-dogging to do the rest. Throwing a dead duck a few meters up in the air to a point the dog is probably accostomed to through association with the thrower, who by the way is there and plain to see, does not constitute a dog marking a bird down well in my opinion.

[cracker]

Building a dog up over a relatively short period of time to travel these distances is not a hard excersise IMO and we were talking about marking birds down at distance in a real situation. I would be very dissapointed if i could not get a spaniel or a lab trained from an early stage to go out in long straight lines with the odd bit of sheep-dogging to these distances. Taking a dog to a memory drop and walking it back, increasing distances each session would take care of the dog taking a line out, the distance is however far or however near you want it to be. Once you have a dog happy to take a line out at distance it's then up to the dogs nose and your handling or sheep-dogging to do the rest. Throwing a dead duck a few meters up in the air to a point the dog is probably accostomed to through association with the thrower, who by the way is there and plain to see, does not constitute a dog marking a bird down well in my opinion.

 

Straight, big misinterpretation (no foul called - just setting you "straight"). "Building a dog up...to travel these distances is not a hard exercise" - true. But this is not "building a dog up to travel these distances" - it's building up a dog's memory so that it's capable of picking one retrieve after another (up to four in a row) from the same standing start - at the line as Kent correctly put it.

 

Quite different than a memory retrieve with the dog watching you plant it - these are retrieves that must be seen from the line at those ridiculous distances and also thrown in such a way that the wind or open space won't "give away" the retrieve to the dog - it must either run straight to it or have a tight hunt (gamefinding).

 

If you'd watched a little more closely you might've have realized that "the thrower, who by the way is there and plain to see," is not there and plain to see when the dog is sent for the successive retrieves after the first bird is picked. The throwers "disappear," becoming what's called a retired gun. Thus the dog has to go by its memory of where it saw each bird fall in taking that straight line to each respective fall. And if you think this "does not constitute marking a bird down well," well, you need to seriously rethink.

 

Again, the "thrower" - throwers one and two - hide after the dog has been sent for the more exciting "liberated" live bird. (That live bird is also intended to short-circuit a dog's memory by the way - making the trial even more difficult. And this is just the "land series" quarter of the trial - the water work and blinds are brutally tougher.)

 

But again let's clarify: When the dog goes for each bird of a multiple mark after the first to be picked, there are no white coats to be seen - just a dog's memory to be relied on. What "constitutes marking a bird down well" is the exceptional dog capable of "putting those pictures together" and coming up with the birds with the least hunt and reliance on the handler. In other words, if you handle on one of these marks - as one of the competitors did in the video - 99% chances you are put out of the trial. Look at it as a reverse eyewipe.

 

It's artifice and all that, agreed - but these retrievers are taught and trained to mark like no others. Because as tough as the blind retrieves are for eliminating US dogs from trials - on both land and water - in field trials, the rulebook states that "marking is of paramount importance" in picking a winner. And that's a winner from a field that often consists of 100 dogs.

 

MG

Edited December 6, 2011 by cracker

[straightbarrel]

Straight, big misinterpretation (no foul called - just setting you "straight"). "Building a dog up...to travel these distances is not a hard exercise" - true. But this is not "building a dog up to travel these distances" - it's building up a dog's "]memory so that it's capable of picking one retrieve after another (up to four in a row) from the same standing start [/b]- at the line as Kent correctly put it.

 

Quite different than a memory retrieve with the dog watching you plant it - these are retrieves that must be seen from the line at those ridiculous distances and also thrown in such a way that the wind or open space won't "give away" the retrieve to the dog - it must either run straight to it or have a tight hunt (gamefinding).

 

If you'd watched a little more closely you might've have realized that "the thrower, who by the way is there and plain to see," is not there and plain to see when the dog is sent for the successive retrieves after the first bird is picked. The throwers "disappear," becoming what's called a retired gun. Thus the dog has to go by its memory of where it saw each bird fall in taking that straight line to each respective fall. And if you think this "does not constitute marking a bird down well," well, you need to seriously rethink.

 

Again, the "thrower" - throwers one and two - hide after the dog has been sent for the more exciting "liberated" live bird. (That live bird is also intended to short-circuit a dog's memory by the way - making the trial even more difficult. And this is just the "land series" quarter of the trial - the water work and blinds are brutally tougher.)

 

But again let's clarify: When the dog goes for each bird of a multiple mark after the first to be picked, there are no white coats to be seen - just a dog's memory to be relied on. What "constitutes marking a bird down well" is the exceptional dog capable of "putting those pictures together" and coming up with the birds with the least hunt and reliance on the handler. In other words, if you handle on one of these marks - as one of the competitors did in the video - 99% chances you are put out of the trial. Look at it as a reverse eyewipe.

 

It's artifice and all that, agreed - but these retrievers are taught and trained to mark like no others. Because as tough as the blind retrieves are for eliminating US dogs from trials - on both land and water - in field trials, the rulebook states that "marking is of paramount importance" in picking a winner. And that's a winner from a field that often consists of 100 dogs.

 

MG

Memory retrieves are not the question, multiple memory retreives are not the question. Marking a bird down was the question. The fact a thrower sneaks away to watch an episode of judge judy while he waits for the retrieves to be made is neither here nor there.The fact is they are standing out like sore thumbs when chucking the birds. The dog will be so well conditioned that when he sees a bod chucking a duck he will remember it. Thats not to say the dog would be incapable of taking a line out to a blind retrieve and eventually coming back with the goods. The question was one of marking the bird down. This is more of a training excercise than a trial in my opinion Field trials should replicate the real thing where possible.

"The exceptional dog capable of putting those pictures together", as you put it, should only be regarded as exceptional if he is putting those pictures together himself

[straightbarrel]

because the routine is learned by a command or release to retrieve, which is a welcome thing - dogs learn through repetition, that's how they're trained and particularly trained up. US blind retrieves are routine except that they're anything but - quirky water entries past thrown birds and precision handling over the course. Anything wrong with that besides their being too long? Anything I want a retriever to do in a trial, I want to have the same capabilities for the hide or afield, and d*mned right I want it to become rote for them - because to dust off a double entendre, that's what advanced training is all about, routine, with creativity (field trials) smack in the middle of it.

 

MG

Wrong!IMO

Edited December 6, 2011 by straightbarrel

[cracker]

Straight, you've got a good give and take going on marking (and gundog training) until you stamp "WRONG!" on something you seem to know little about, US retriever training. And that's irrespective US retriever field trials, which I'm trying to explain only to have you telling how easy they would be to participate in with just any old dog.

 

C'mon - when you say

"The exceptional dog capable of putting those pictures together", as you put it, should only be regarded as exceptional if he is putting those pictures together himself

who do you think "puts the pictures together," if not the dog itself? The competitor doesn't take a snap and put it in front of the dog to see and sniff before it heads out. The dog processes what's in the distance (surroundings that include the white coat), making (and taking) a mental snap that produces the memory required to go and get those many birds. That's training for marking - and memory - both required in great heaps to be competitive...unless your trial's a "natural shooting day." Nothing wrong with that, just different. Where I come from, we celebrate differences rather than condemning them. So long as it don't become gundog multiculturalism...

 

MG

[straightbarrel]

Straight, you've got a good give and take going on marking (and gundog training) until you stamp "WRONG!" on something you seem to know little about, US retriever training. And that's irrespective US retriever field trials, which I'm trying to explain only to have you telling how easy they would be to participate in with just any old dog.

 

C'mon - when you say

 

who do you think "puts the pictures together," if not the dog itself? The competitor doesn't take a snap and put it in front of the dog to see and sniff before it heads out. The dog processes what's in the distance (surroundings that include the white coat), making (and taking) a mental snap that produces the memory required to go and get those many birds. That's training for marking - and memory - both required in great heaps to be competitive...unless your trial's a "natural shooting day." Nothing wrong with that, just different. Where I come from, we celebrate differences rather than condemning them. So long as it don't become gundog multiculturalism...

 

MG

The word wrong was "stamped" with IMO following it.In my opinion. My take on repetition, the thing that you say "makes them learn", is that it is used to gain consistency once a task or way of behaviour has been achieved or learned. The learning comes through association with good or bad experiences.

 

The "pictures" are put together by everyone that aids in the throwing of the birds, the marker flags or points, the picture is also vastly improved by the vantage point of the dogs and handlers.

 

Celebrating differences is all well and good, no good being totally blinkered, I am open to anything that can offer improvements on methods/training practices, but, until I can see something in the differences that is worth celebrating, I will chose to observe and comment if necessary, rather than celebrate.

Edited December 6, 2011 by straightbarrel