Marking tips?

[wildfowler.250]

As above. I would appreciate if anyone had some good tips on how to teach my lab pup to mark fallen birds?

 

My other question is what is the best way to teach a dog to "go back" when retrieving? She has got the hang of going left and right. I'm just not sure how to send her further out?

 

 

Any links, videos or tips would be very much appreciated!

[WGD]

As above. I would appreciate if anyone had some good tips on how to teach my lab pup to mark fallen birds?

 

If you have someone that can throw dummies up in the air at increasing distances and fire a shot (or a blank) so the dog associates the shot with something in the air in front of it.

 

My other question is what is the best way to teach a dog to "go back" when retrieving? She has got the hang of going left and right. I'm just not sure how to send her further out?

 

Use a track or a straight path and do memory retrieves initially until the dog understands the command then send it back for increasingly long blinds.

 

Any links, videos or tips would be very much appreciated!

[wildfowler.250]

Great, thanks very much!

 

 

I'll do a memory retrieve and say go back and see how that goes

 

 

Cheers!

[WGD]

Great, thanks very much!

 

I'll do a memory retrieve and say go back and see how that goes

 

Cheers!

 

Stating the obvious, but a long straight track or path is what you are after - it helps keep the dog going out in a straight line.

 

What I do is, once you have dropped the dummy to be used, walk the dog away then sit it up and walk on a bit further (20 - 30yds) so the dog is facing you, with the dummy behind it. Then give the command, and a hand signal if you want, to send the dog back.

 

I don't use the back command when the dog is at my side, what I want to try and build up to is the dog sitting facing me (in a real situation stopped on the whistle being handled onto a blind retrieve) and knowing that back means turn and run directly away from me.

[wildfowler.250]

That's great! Just what I'm after! Thanks very much again!

[cracker]

Good work, WGD - got him briefed well. Only thing I would add - would reiterate - is that you want to use the whitest of white dummies you can find, which usually means plastic and possibly imported from the States, in the throwing and shooting by a helper. Because with white the motion that attracts a retriever's attention in the first place and that culminates with the arc of the throw is more easily followed for marking. And since marking is developing the dog's sight over the scent that is their default gamefinding sense, it's very helpful in differentiating. White's not often real world shooting (unless it is)

 

 

but again in training you want to give the dog every opportunity to succeed at learning how to mark.

 

MG

[PERCE]

Just use an ordinary dummy & stick a sports sock over it.

[cracker]

Great idea! - that ought to get wide traction with folks who don't fancy plastic or rubber dummies.

 

MG

[PERCE]

Ordinary dummys will also stand up on their end without too much hassle, you set a line of them out getting progessively further away to help increase a dogs blind range. Vary the track you use though or you can end with one trick pony.

[kent]

For the back command you can drop a dummy with dog at heel put it onto sit walk on a way then turn face the dog give it the hand singnal and the verbal "back". Alternatively drop the dog on the stop and do a simple lob over its head (carefull you dont hit the dog) and give the hand and verbal signal. Progress this onto previously hidden "backs" and staight lines of dummies (make use of fences etc.) The first way i suggest is great for traing real long "backs" and a great way to exersize an energetic and enthusiastic retriever.

 

As regards training to mark, i do not think this needs any specialised training they just pick it up through lots of repetition and mixing up routines, thowing into long grass, into reed beds, dropping multiple dummies yet only sending it on one specific etc,etc,etc - mixing up routines keeps the dog from anticipating your commands and looking for guidence which is the real key, otherwise they soon learn the routine and stop paying attention so keep them guessing . If your dog realy knows left and right and back then put it on drop walk out and put one dummy to the left, one to the right and one behind it then face the dog and send it on the one it seems to have forgotten the most, walk away leaving the other two behind to a different locality then direct it onto the others

 

IMO forget al the hype about colours and type of dummies, before we became such a consumer society we trained some pretty good dogs using rolled up bits of carpet, stuffed rabbit skins etc.

[cracker]

Unfortunately, Kent, seems you don't quite get the concept of marking. Marking isn't a dog watching a bird go down 50 yards away and then having to hunt those 50 yards to find it - hunting left and right, to and fro, using its nose (scent) over its eyesight. Marking is a dog using its eyes (sight) over scent (its nose), and running directly to the fall.

 

That's where the "colours," namely white, come in - enhancing a dog's marking skills, and concurrently its memory. Can tell you a wee bit about marking as the trials I compete in require it to be done at extreme distances of 350-400 metres, and moreover via multiple marks which calls on a dog's memory as well.

 

And your "not buying the hype" for teaching either of those concepts - marking and memory - with beneficial training aids might be analogized to saying we always got where we needed to go with horse and carriage - and shrugged off the arrival of the automobile because we didn't worry about how long it took us to get there because, what-what, we didn't have anything better to do...

 

MG

[kent]

Unfortunately, Kent, seems you don't quite get the concept of marking. Marking isn't a dog watching a bird go down 50 yards away and then having to hunt those 50 yards to find it - hunting left and right, to and fro, using its nose (scent) over its eyesight. Marking is a dog using its eyes (sight) over scent (its nose), and running directly to the fall.

 

That's where the "colours," namely white, come in - enhancing a dog's marking skills, and concurrently its memory. Can tell you a wee bit about marking as the trials I compete in require it to be done at extreme distances of 350-400 metres, and moreover via multiple marks which calls on a dog's memory as well.

 

And your "not buying the hype" for teaching either of those concepts - marking and memory - with beneficial training aids might be analogized to saying we always got where we needed to go with horse and carriage - and shrugged off the arrival of the automobile because we didn't worry about how long it took us to get there because, what-what, we didn't have anything better to do...

 

MG

 

I think you misunderstand me, marking is seeing the fall and going directly into it agreed, it is also marking by sound! although it should be linked to memory as you cant always send your dog imediate or even from the same spot that the bird was marked from in many shooting situations. Sorry but i personally care very little for American trials and American stds. Quite simply English lines etc would not sell for a premium in your country if American stds were worth as much as they are billed to be and we would be a lot keener on getting hold your dogs here in Europe rather than the reverse

 

Ok so you like your consumer goods Mixing up the training is my number 1 point here, otherwise you teach the dog a routine not a command

[tigger]

As above. I would appreciate if anyone had some good tips on how to teach my lab pup to mark fallen birds?

 

My other question is what is the best way to teach a dog to "go back" when retrieving? She has got the hang of going left and right. I'm just not sure how to send her further out?

 

 

Any links, videos or tips would be very much appreciated!

 

Have a look at GUNDOG GEARGUNDOG GEAR they have them in white puppy dummies i would grab one asap as i dont think anybody else does them and they do the plastic white type aswell, i found as the pup got a bit older i got a remote dummy launcher which they really responded to well as well as making it easier whilst training alone

Edited November 28, 2011 by tigger

[WGD]

Mixing up the training is my number 1 point here, otherwise you teach the dog a routine not a command

 

I would certainly mix up the environment through time and keep training varied - a bored dog is no use to anyone, but repetition IMO is an important part of ingraining the desired behaviour in a dog and managing the environment is key to achieving success.

[kent]

I would certainly mix up the environment through time and keep training varied - a bored dog is no use to anyone, but repetition IMO is an important part of ingraining the desired behaviour in a dog and managing the environment is key to achieving success.

 

Its just a case of were to draw the line isn't it realy? obviously the connection between "back" and the hand signal must be drawn by the dog yet doing it the same way all the time past that critical point and you start teaching a routine IMO. A ploy often used by the less honest trainer charging for thier sevices or selling on the "part trained" dog. The dog doesnt understand "back" in the shooting field only that "back" means the dummy is under the bush I don't believe dogs get as "bored" by routine as many say they actually quite like routine as most dog owners know Routine breeds security in a dogs mind. Though yes i know what you realy mean 20 tennis balls into the garden = whats the point, i will have to run off and bury the darn thing

[WGD]

Its just a case of were to draw the line isn't it realy?

 

Therein lies the skill of training a dog and not programming a robot.

[cracker]

Quite simply English lines etc would not sell for a premium in your country if American stds were worth as much as they are billed to be and we would be a lot keener on getting hold your dogs here in Europe rather than the reverse

 

Unfortunately that's about as wide of the wicket as if it'd been bowled by Spike Milligan...

 

Received or perceived notions - neither does much for credibility. You've thrown this bit of cloud cuckoo land out there before - I'm here to tell you, living it, the notion doesn't hold water. "English lines sell for a premium" - they cost the same or less in the US than what they bring over there. This one for example

 

 

(British not English - nobody but show folk call them "English" Labs) cost less than the domestic flight that shipped her to me.

 

The US equivalent of her pedigree would go for a couple of grand. And "if American stds were worth as much as they are billed to be and we would be a lot keener on getting hold your dogs here in Europe rather than the reverse " - see Kent we start working our dogs long before they would be getting out of quarantine over there. And they wouldn't be suited for your field trials - too athletic, too little to do in a trial - or in the water. That's even if you like British FTs, as I do. Only I think of them as the equivalent of our spaniel field trials, what with the requirements (steadiness and single marked retrieves with a little gamefinding thrown in). I've heard the HPR trials are even less substantial, but...

 

Anyhow, 'fraid this comes off as a nonsequitur

 

Mixing up the training is my number 1 point here, otherwise you teach the dog a routine not a command

 

because the routine is learned by a command or release to retrieve, which is a welcome thing - dogs learn through repetition, that's how they're trained and particularly trained up. US blind retrieves are routine except that they're anything but - quirky water entries past thrown birds and precision handling over the course. Anything wrong with that besides their being too long? Anything I want a retriever to do in a trial, I want to have the same capabilities for the hide or afield, and d*mned right I want it to become rote for them - because to dust off a double entendre, that's what advanced training is all about, routine, with creativity (field trials) smack in the middle of it.

 

MG

Edited November 28, 2011 by cracker

[straightbarrel]

Good work, WGD - got him briefed well. Only thing I would add - would reiterate - is that you want to use the whitest of white dummies you can find, which usually means plastic and possibly imported from the States, in the throwing and shooting by a helper. Because with white the motion that attracts a retriever's attention in the first place and that culminates with the arc of the throw is more easily followed for marking. And since marking is developing the dog's sight over the scent that is their default gamefinding sense, it's very helpful in differentiating. White's not often real world shooting (unless it is)

 

 

but again in training you want to give the dog every opportunity to succeed at learning how to mark.

 

MG

 

The white sky of that picture you have in your post coupled with a white dummy, would cause more problems than having a standard coloured dummy IMO. If we want to go to this extreme at massive distances surely the better the dummy silhouette the better the chance of seeing it?...a black dummy? From a dogs perspective looking up at a fall, thrown at whatever height, the dog is often going to be looking skywards so if we are talking about the coulour of dummies adding to a dogs marking success then surely the darker the dummy the better for marking the fall?

Edited November 28, 2011 by straightbarrel

[cracker]

The white sky of that picture you have in your post coupled with a white dummy, would cause more problems than having a standard coloured dummy IMO. If we want to go to this extreme at massive distances surely the better the dummy silhouette the better the chance of seeing it?...a black dummy? From a dogs perspective looking up at a fall, thrown at whatever height, the dog is often going to be looking skywards so if we are talking about the coulour of dummies adding to a dogs marking success then surely the darker the dummy the better for marking the fall?

 

Yes to all. Black-and-white dummies with - yes, you guessed it - black-and-white streamers clipped onto them for marking at the extreme distances. (But also for the streamer motion which excites a dog to go harder on the retrieve, thinking it a bird rather than a prosaic old dummy.) Black dummies for snow cover or an overcast day, white otherwise. But Perce's idea of "socking" a regular dummy - genius! And to sock it in black, maybe some used stockings from Neath RFC...

 

MG

[vixen.]

Just on the 'back' command. Make sure you are training to an end, so the dog knows to always go back to the furthest point. Best piece of advice I've ever been given. Time and time again I see handlers training 'back' to a dummy in the middle of the field. It is easier to stop the dog on the way out and direct it onto a dummy than it is to get it to go further back than it's used to. As has already been said, build on from a memory. Good luck

[kent]

Cracker, i doubt we will agree on this- the advtisement for English / British lines is all over the net, not just Labs but Cockers also with kennels specialising in breeding and importing . Very few dogs here ever see an e-collar yet its become a std practice almost in the USA (ever wonder why that might be) as is force fetch. Moon flighting ducks and geese is not legal in any states as far as i am aware ( yet for a wildfowling dog here night training is a must) and our shooting is bound to have many other areas of difference, Big driven pheasant days etc, so yes our dogs will have different criteria. The whole colour thing is just flannel IMO and i cannot be convinced otherwise, put out there to trap/ sell more gullable people more useless tat! For pities sake dogs have very poor colour vision and most game is coloured to blend into its enviroment anyway

The whole quarantine thing is a bit wide of the mark as we do import from other countries were similar restictions apply basically were thiers a will thiers a way Its just there aint much will in this case

[cracker]

Kent, you seem to have the (second-hand) answers - to breeding, importing, training for marking and colour selection - so why not shed some enlightenment on this

 

Very few dogs here ever see an e-collar yet its become a std practice almost in the USA (ever wonder why that might be) as is force fetch.

 

as I'm keen to "know."

 

MG

[Gillaroo]

the trials I compete in require it to be done at extreme distances of 350-400 metres, and moreover via multiple marks which calls on a dog's memory as well.

 

 

Multiple marking a quarter of a mile away. :o :o :o I'd love to see a video of that Cracker if you've got one? I'll believe it when I see it.

[kent]

Kent, you seem to have the (second-hand) answers - to breeding, importing, training for marking and colour selection - so why not shed some enlightenment on this

 

 

 

as I'm keen to "know."

 

MG

 

If you don't already there is simply no helping you, anyone else who cares to look on the American Forums and dog training links from the otherside of the pond the info is there for all to see. I have had numerous discusions on American sites but many still many refuse to believe there is any other way than FF that realy works and thats on retrieving breeds!

[wildfowler.250]

Well thanks for all the informative replies! I've picked up a lot from this

 

My only minor hiccups at the moment are: she tends to play with the dummy if she catches it by the string,(I'm going to cut it off!), half the time she will drop a canvas dummy at my feet,(yet to drop a dead bird though so that's reassuring) and the other night she discovered cow **** for the first time which took over her interest!

 

Getting there slowly though! Cheers again!!