fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have a very old 16 guage s/s that belonged to my grandfather ,where it is stamped "choke" 16.9 on both barrels, I am not sure what this is but i am guesssing full or extra full it certainly kills a long way out on the rare occasions i use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 that might be bore measurement at choke a 16 bore is roughly 0.662" compared to 0.729" for 12. choke is the constriction and the muzzle usual in 0.0010" increments "full" choke is 0.0050" less (tighter) than the bore ish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslaptop247 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 i have one made pre 1877. when i get hone i will tell you what mine is stamped. its got no choke!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr salt Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 does the trigger at the back fire the right barrel which seems to be full'ish choke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 16.9 may be mm measurement of choke used in europe between 1924 and 1964 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Vector Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Is it an English gun? If it is, I would suggest that it's been re-proofed at some point in it's life. 16.9 referring to the nominal bore diameter at the time of re-proof i.e. 16.9mm(0.665") in both. 16.9 doesn't refer to the degree of choke. The word "choke" was used to indicate that the gun originally had a degree of choke in both tubes. Some old guns were marked for nominal bore diameter and muzzle diameter to indicate the approximate degree of choke. You will only be able to determine the choke by measuring the current nominal bore diameter 9" from the breech end of the barrels and the bore diameter at the muzzles. Take one from the other and that will give you the choke (in mm or thousands of an inch). Choke is a relative measurement. Does it have other markings such as 16/1(equivalent to 0.669"), 16(0.662"), 17/1(0.655") or 17(0.649")? If so, that would indicate the original bore diameters. What else is stamped on the barrel flats? Can you post some clear pictures of the proof marks on the flats? I've started using using a 16 bore Army & Navy recently and love it - kills as well as 12 bore and weighs a lot less, which is an important consideration for us oldies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 does the trigger at the back fire the right barrel which seems to be full'ish choke? No the back trigger fires the left barrel both barrels have the same choke as "choke 16.9" is stamped on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 16.9 may be mm measurement of choke used in europe between 1924 and 1964 That sounds about right to me , my grandfather was born in 1926 and the gun was given to him by a uncle I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) DOes it have belgian proof marks? more likely 16.9 is the bore so would need to measure the muzzle to get the choke Edited January 13, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Is it an English gun? If it is, I would suggest that it's been re-proofed at some point in it's life. 16.9 referring to the nominal bore diameter at the time of re-proof i.e. 16.9mm(0.665") in both. 16.9 doesn't refer to the degree of choke. The word "choke" was used to indicate that the gun originally had a degree of choke in both tubes. Some old guns were marked for nominal bore diameter and muzzle diameter to indicate the approximate degree of choke. You will only be able to determine the choke by measuring the current nominal bore diameter 9" from the breech end of the barrels and the bore diameter at the muzzles. Take one from the other and that will give you the choke (in mm or thousands of an inch). Choke is a relative measurement. Does it have other markings such as 16/1(equivalent to 0.669"), 16(0.662"), 17/1(0.655") or 17(0.649")? If so, that would indicate the original bore diameters. What else is stamped on the barrel flats? Can you post some clear pictures of the proof marks on the flats? I've started using using a 16 bore Army & Navy recently and love it - kills as well as 12 bore and weighs a lot less, which is an important consideration for us oldies! No its not english I am affraid ,As far as i am aware it is belgian.too much of a numpty to post pics but on the barrels it says choke 16.9 with NF under that. On the flats there is 17.0 on both then on the right there is also 1kg 346 then a d followed by * with AV under that under that is what looks like a lion ? with PV under it lastly a oval with a crown on top with E inside it ,hope you can follow that . LG * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Ah so may be 17mm bore choked to 16.9mm 0.1mm of choke 0.0001 m = 0.003937 " so full (tight full for a 16 bore?) Edited January 13, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 DOes it have belgian proof marks? more likely 16.9 is the bore so would need to measure the muzzle to get the choke excellent thanks with those marks at least I know definately know it is belgian and nitro proofed,which is more than I was certain of before thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ah so may be 17mm bore choked to 16.9mm 0.1mm of choke 0.0001 m = 0.003937 " so 3/4-full (full for a 16 bore?) So my original guess of full / extra full was around right ,thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) excellent thanks with those marks at least I know definately know it is belgian and nitro proofed,which is more than I was certain of before thanks. Google "leige proof marks" and you may be able to date the gun to the year (some sites better than others).......could have been messy if you had used Nitro in a BP only gun! http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html is good and has date codes Edited January 13, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Google "leige proof marks" and you may be able to date the gun to the year (some sites better than others).......could have been messy if you had used Nitro in a BP only gun! http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html is good and has date codes will have a look thanks for the info, it had been used for years before I had it with nitro cartridges so I thought iw should be safe to use, to be honest I only use it once or twice a year as a rule as it has seen better days I keep it for sentimental reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Vector Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ah, if it's Belgian you can ignore my post... One small point though: Ah so may be 17mm bore choked to 16.9mm 0.1mm of choke 0.0001 m = 0.003937 " so full (tight full for a 16 bore?) Full choke is 0.040" (40 thou). The above is approximately 0.004" (4 thou) which is about improved cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Full choke is 0.040" (40 thou). The above is approximately 0.004" (4 thou) which is about improved cylinder. I may well have my decimal point in the wrong place.... As a 16 bore is smaller than a 12 bore wont full choke be proportionally less thou? Of course it needs to tested on a pattern plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 The gun certainly is not improved cylinder , it patterns very , very tight indeed I can remember my grandfather telling me he was told it was extra full in both barrles but he could not be sure , he also said his uncle who gave him the gun loved it as he could shoot bolting rabbits in the head with little damage to the rest of it ! My mother has a photo somewhere of 152 rabbits that were shot with this gun just before ww2 by my grandfathers uncle walking alongside a harvester in kent ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 The markings will show choke at proof any gunsmith can measure it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslaptop247 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Mine reads. 693 so what does that make it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattslaptop247 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 .693 should be 14gauge i think but it has a 16 in a diamond next to it. Confused!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Vector Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 0.693 does correspond to the proof size for a 14 bore but the diamond mark contains the nominal bore for which your gun is chambered i.e. it will take a 16 bore cartridge. 14 bore cases (I think they might still be available in Europe) would not enter. This mark was common to both the London and Birmingham proof houses and was used from 1887. For each nominal bore size there is a range of proof sizes. So for a 16 bore the range covers 0.637(18) to 0.669(16/1)". In your case it measures up as a 14 bore where the range goes from 0.677(15) to 0.701(14/1). In reality it is a 16 bore because that's what it's chambered for and that's what fits up the hole! This is only true for English guns of course... My 16 bore was originally proofed (in 1911/12) at 16 right and 16 left (corresponding to 0.662"). It too has the diamond mark with "16C" inside it. It now measures 16.9mm and 17.0mm (0.665" and 0.669 respectively). It was re-proofed by the London Proof House late last year under the 1984 - 89 Rules of Proof which is why it's marked in metric. Under the current rules the proof sizes now increment in 0.1mm steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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