EMcC Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 I'm not sure whether this is in the correct place but it is Shooting related so I'm hoping it is. Three weeks ago I joined a syndicate under rules explained to me verbally and paid £1k plus £200 vat. However when the written lease was received it was not as explained when I paid the money. The Agent was good about it and said that under the circumstances and due to the misunderstanding was quite willing to release me from the contract and return my money. It is now two weeks since I was offered a refund so I contacted the Agent who apologised for the delay but then told me it was because of the problem of returning the Vat. He said that as I was not Vat registered he could not return the Vat, surely that cannot be correct. If I buy something in a shop and return it I get a full refund which includes Vat, surely it is the same in this case isn't it|? Can someone enlighten me before I contact BASC legal branch and turn what was a friendly transaction into a legal wrangle. Mungler or Amir - any ideas ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 there should be no issue its in effect purchase of shooting and on refund the vat will simply be refunded as well. If they have paid it to HMRC then they simply claim it back on the next return, someone is either being thick or indeed pulling a fast one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Don't see what he's on about, to be honest. VAT is charged on goods and services and given that you aren't partaking of his service then you should get the whole amount back. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super sharp shooter Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 As above. If I return a payment they would get all their money money not minus the vat he is talking rubbish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 As you've been advised above. The thing is, you didn't pay VAT - you paid the invoice amount which happens to have a VAT component which the agent has to charge and declare. All you're concerned about is the invoice total i.e. £1200 and ALL of that needs to be returned to you. Give them the benefit of the doubt as they may have made a simple mistake. If they are deliberately mucking you about tell them you are calling the VAT office to ask about their actions - I suspect it will be returned quite quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Well thanks guys, you have really confirmed my suspicions, that I was entitled to a refund and the Agent is pulling a fast one. I'll ask again but I'll be a bit firmer this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super sharp shooter Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Maybe he isn't vat reg but charging for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Maybe he isn't vat reg but charging for it?/quote] That wouldn't surprise me at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 should be irrelevant, that would just mean he was with holding £200 for the sake of it. Suggest if he won't refund it that you'll make inquiries with HMRC and you'll need his VAT number etc should be on the paperwork anyway but might rattle the cage a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super sharp shooter Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Might be his admin fee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 There may be genuine confusion here. He is an agent which means he's acting for someone else. The VAT, I imagine, is charged only on his fee and not on the whole price. If there are several people in the syndicate then there might be some confusion as to figure out refunds and account for the VAT correctly so it may be a genuine mistake. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) If its £200 its on the whole price no confusion there, Edited July 3, 2012 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) As in this instance you are buying shooting it is the right to shoot and take game that is being supplied and this is taxable at the standard rate. Private shoots run for recreational purposes are not businesses for VAT purposes even though contributions may be received from family or friends. Syndicate shoots, effectively run on a cost sharing basis, are also not businesses and therefore they do not have to register for VAT. However, in common with every other shoot that is not VAT registered, no person or organisation is entitled to recover from HMRC any of the VAT in costs incurred in the running of a private, recreational (as opposed to commercial) shoot. Where commercial and private shooting are run in parallel, the whole will be treated as a single taxable activity. However, getting back to the main point, of course you should get a full refund, if I buy a new 3 piece suite for say £2000, and that will be the cost of the furniture of £1667 plus VAT at 20%, and its faulty or I want to return it under the distance selling regulations, I get all my money back, not just the net price. Depending on how you paid, you could ask you credit card company or your bank, if you paid by charge card, to refund you. David Edited July 3, 2012 by David BASC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 What I mean is that if the total commission on his services is £200 then he may genuinely have made a mistake. Can't think how it might happen but you never know. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graiglearn Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) You need a invoice showing the amount of VAT charged , you only seem to have a invoice with a total , If you buy fuel at a filling station you usually only get a total invoice at some stations and have to ask for a separate invoice showing VAT.The invoice should show VAT Reg number also Edited July 3, 2012 by graiglearn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Yes he is definitely a con merchant. He has now said he can only return the sum if he gets another fool/client to take it on. He is not Vat registered on any of his correspondence either. I reckon I might have a fight on my hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 If he is charging vat and isn't registered then that is very naughty. If you. Can find any paperwork hmrc are worth a call. Failing that it sounds like you need to threaten the small claims court. So easy to do even if you don't get the money it gets a bit of revenge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Thanks for all the replys. All I needed really was confirmation of what I suspected in the first place so I am happy now that I have it. It caught me unawares initially, so I went away with my tail between my legs, now I shall approach him again with a view of staying with him until I get my money. The annoying thing about this is that it was he that suggested, that due to the misunderstanding, he would understand if I withdrew and he would refund my money. No mention of getting a replacement or Vat so, as he was straight up with me, I expected the refund within a couple of days. Oh well fingers crossed and hope for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yes he is definitely a con merchant. He has now said he can only return the sum if he gets another fool/client to take it on. He is not Vat registered on any of his correspondence either. I reckon I might have a fight on my hands. Take him to court - he's defrauded you. Also report him to the police for fraud. I'm sure that HMRC would be interested in all this too! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 As above, all rather naughty and the VAT man won't like any of it. The thing to do is try and get a paper trail running - he's reversed himself on one aspect already, now will come the complete denial of all conversations and the complete 180 degree turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 The most important bit probably is how did you pay him. If by cheque or bank transfer and you received the same back then you have a very good paper trail of what is owed etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 I paid by bank transfer and have had nothing back so far. I have the original e mail from him telling me there was a 'misunderstanding' on my part and agreeing to refund my fee if I chose to withdraw now the terms were clarified. I agreed to withdraw and have had nothing but excuses rather than a refund so far. This morning he has agreed to send me a cheque so I will now wait and see what transpires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yes he is definitely a con merchant. He has now said he can only return the sum if he gets another fool/client to take it on. He is not Vat registered on any of his correspondence either. I reckon I might have a fight on my hands. Take him to court - he's defrauded you. Also report him to the police for fraud. I'm sure that HMRC would be interested in all this too! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yes he is definitely a con merchant. He has now said he can only return the sum if he gets another fool/client to take it on. He is not Vat registered on any of his correspondence either. I reckon I might have a fight on my hands. Take him to court - he's defrauded you. Also report him to the police for fraud. I'm sure that HMRC would be interested in all this too! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 If you get the £1k back its only £25 to go for the rest in the small claims court and you can do the whole thing through money claim online. Otherwise its £70 for the whole lot send him a recorded delivery letter giving him 7 days or you will go to the small claims court, you just need to know if its in a business name etc but that should be covered by the name of the organisation you paid the money to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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