Greylags?

[wildfowler.250]

How do you age them? Apart from if you get a massive one which is blatantly ancient I've heard of people tearing the webbing on the feet and if you can do this easily it's a young bird but I am not convinced.

 

Thoughts?

[anser2]

All geese are simple to age, Look at the tail feathers. if the tips are neat and smooth edged they are adult , if they are ragged and split at the tip they are juveniles. Older birds also have a spur on the wing , but sometimes so does the odd young one.

 

Looking at the tail feathers also works for ducks until mid winter when they moult into adult type feathers , but geese will not moult until next summer.

[wildfowler.250]

Thank you very much! It's been pretty much roulette going by size I've got half a dozen in the fridge,(admittedly they are a bit muddy) but I'll have a look. If I can see any obvious differences I'll stick a picture up. Never noticed a spur on the wing but I'll have a look.

 

 

Cheers again! Never realised geese were straightforward to age

[M ROBSON]

The easiest and quickest way to age Greylags is to look at their beak.

 

Young birds have a black tip to the egg tooth and the beak is more a yellowish colour.

 

Old birds have a clear creamy egg tooth and the beak turns a darker shade of orange.

 

This is true regardless of sex and wether they are migratory or resident.

 

Here's 3 young birds for your reference,

 

2006_1024Image0032 by mj robson, on Flickr

 

Old Grey on the right,

2007_0130Image0028 by mj robson, on Flickr

 

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited September 10, 2012 by M ROBSON

[big bad lindz]

Good information there Mark thanks,

I was told the amount of black speckels on the chest will be an indication of an older bird, less black then a younger bird. I did not know about the beaks. Its good to learn something new espicially about a wildfowling.

 

Cheers,

 

BBL

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks very much for the reply mark! Pictures were very helpful :good:

[wildfowler.250]

Just had a look at the birds. 6 out of 6 have a white egg tooth. That's got to be pretty bad luck? 5 were out of the same skien and I'm not shooting the lead birds either you'd thing one of them would be a bit younger

[anser2]

I must confess Mark I was surprised at your method of using the colour of the bill nail to age your geese. I have never heard of this method of aging despite ringing hundreds of greylags of all ages with a number of different ringers including WWT staff. Its probably a local thing with your birds . Have you checked nail colour with tail wear to confirm the goose age? I spend a long time last night looking at 100s of greylag photos and only two might have had a dark nail , but they also had muddy bills. I also checked a number of papers , but none mention this. This weekend I will be doing a wildfowl count at a site where I can get very close to several hundred greys so will be keeping a sharp eye out for nail colour.

 

You are right about the intensity of the orange\yellow bill with the older birds having a more orange bill , but once the goose is dead the bill colour fades. Black speckles on the chest can also be a sign of an old bird , but not all old birds show this and a small percentage of 1 year old birds will show some speckling.

[M ROBSON]

Its probably a local thing with your birds

 

Not so, the birds in the top pic are Icelandic greylags shot on the Cromarty firth. As I said, It doesn't make any difference if they are resident or migratory birds, or what area they come from.

 

I believe that it takes a couple of years for this tip to grow out as you will find birds with a lesser darkening than others, almost like when you bruise your thumbnail and it grows out.

 

I've used this method for years, once you know what your looking for it's quite easy to tell them apart.

Let us know how you get on.

Edited September 15, 2012 by M ROBSON

[anser2]

spent several hours going through a large flock of 524 greylags this morning at close range 10-35 yards using a Nikon x 60 magnification telescope. I was able to get clear views of over 350 birds ( the others had their bills tucked into their backs asleep ). Only two birds had black nails to their bills. One was clearly an adult gander with a family party of 2 adults and 3 obviously smaller and duller juveniles. The bird in question was obviously a very large gander and very aggressive to any other greylags that came near his family . It was impossible to be sure of the age of the other bird as for most of the time most of its body was hidden in the middle of the flock , but I did get the impression it maybe a young bird.

 

The greylags were doubtless mainly of feral origins , however many of the original stock birds in Norfolk were of feral Scottish origin brought down as eggs in the 1950\60s from SW Scotland. However in recent years there has been a mixing of birds from Dutch and Orkney origins ( neck banded ) some of which have mated with probably local birds and some limited domestic blood. However following a search through many photographs online of greylags taken in the UK and Europe I would regard using a black nail on the bill as unreliable as a method of ageing greylags unless it is used in conjunction with the state of the tail feathers for birds of the English population and would be very wary of using it for other populations.

 

 

 

A search through greylag photos will show black nailed greylags are uncommon within the photos but I have found some = Probable 2nd yeara or adult ( from tail display posture and lack of juv feathers ) with a black bill nail www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/greylag-goose009.html

 

 

The bird on the right has a black nail

www.animalphotos.me/bird3/bird3-greyl2.htm

 

 

A bird showing black nail

www.birddb.co.uk/findpicture.php?common_name=Greylag%20Goose&l...

 

But 90% of the photos show no black nail = mikeatkinson.net/GreylagGoose.htm

 

www.surfbirds.com/gallery/search2.php?species=Greylag%20Goose

 

www.arkive.org/greylag-goose/anser-anser/image-A19928.html

 

 

 

 

 

www.birding.se/foto/gragas.htm

 

Juv , note unmoulted breast feather patch without black nail.

http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/greylag-goose-anser-anser/bird-lake-border

 

 

Edited September 16, 2012 by anser2

[wildfowler.250]

Thank you for all the replies! So basically I'll look for a yellowish beak,(orange being old), a black egg tooth or rough-edged tail feathers. In truth this will only be easy if I can compare it with several birds,(hopefully they won't be caked in mud!).

 

I've always been told not to shoot at the lead bird(s). BUT am I better off going for the ones at the very back ends of the skien to try and get more younger birds?

[big bad lindz]

Confused or what ? as I said before some good information but I do not think it will help when the fever hits and the skeins are coming in above you. Its not going to be easy identifing ages in the air.

 

wildfowler.250 In my limited experienceI shoot at what I can within the skein front, back or middle it makes no diffrence to me as long as I manage to bring something down.

I suppose from a cooking & eating point of view if you can identify the age of the birds before preping them may make a diffrence whither you quick fry them, slow roast or a stew or mince.

I

Anser2 with regard to you being a twitcher as well as a wildfowler and sitting so close to so many geese just to watch them has given me some food for thought. I know that most of the wildfowlers that I have met and correspond with are also bird watchers of a kind and in some areas do a lot for the various nature conservation areas. I think I may invest in a better camera as I do get a buzz even just watching the large skeins, and as we all know we can be sitting in the right bay but at the wrong side just to see them fly by.

 

As I have mentioned in other posts I am off up to Orkney next week and I will be going out with one of the guides up there and I will be asking him how he would identify the ages of the birds.

I am sure that there a few other suggestions out there of how to age them. I am also looking foward to seeing the large skeins and other types of birds, Armed twitchers :yp:

 

Cheers,

 

BBL

[anser2]

Lindz , I am not a twitcher!!!!!!!!!!! I work in conservation and part of my job is counting wildfowl on a coastal reserve , though primarly I am an woodland ecologist. I have been a wildfowler since I was a kid , but for me the birds must always come first, without them there is no wildfowling. You might be surprised how many conservationists shoot. The reason I use a chat name is so i can speak freely without anyone in my office realising its me.

 

As for shooting young tender geese , The lead and last birds in a skien are usually adult . A skien is usualy made up of a number of family parties , plus non breeders and you can often see the youngsters by size alone.

 

As for aging your geese i can tell you now , the tail feather condition is 100% correct. Its been established pratice for bird ringers to use this method for years and its stood the test of time. Forget about bill nail colour I was looking as an adult gander this morning with a family and a dark bill nail. Plus dozens of youngsters with no dark nail. You can ID juveniles at this time of year by unmoulted juvenile feathers on the flanks\ breast , but shortly most young greys will have moulted into adult type feathers. So unless you are very experianced do not use that feature to age your birds.

 

Just run through any group of greylag pictures online and you will see dark bill nails are quite rare. By the way no adult bird has an egg tooth.That disapears within days of hatching to be replaced by the bill nail.

 

 

 

link for juv greylag x canada tail feathers. The rule of broken tail tips in 1st year greylags applys to all geese.

 

 

The feather on the left is a juvenile and the centre and I think the right are adult tail feathers in this link

 

http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCTP&Product_Code=1073-029-002&Category_Code=540-600-000

Edited September 16, 2012 by anser2

[big bad lindz]

Anser2,

Sorry a miss understanding dont take it as a lable. As I said we all watch the birds and the other animals that we see on our outings. Still it must be great to get that close to so many geese. I am sure that you have become very versed in your approach and tactics over the years. Last season I was able to get down to a particular part of the shore, which has no cover, early as the geese were still on there roost. I got my hide up and sat and waited. Although I had my binos with me I wish I had a camera, there must have been upwards of 500. The light was not that great for close identification but it was a great sight to see them lift on mass, but **** law 200yds up the shore from me.

 

Thanks for the feather info. I will try and use that.

 

Cheers

 

BBL

[M ROBSON]

_Robert,

_{You seemed rather quick to dismiss this method of picking out younger birds dispite only recently learning about this trait. I've been using this for 20+ years on both resident and Icelandic birds and I can assure you it is definately reliable. Do you ever get Icelandic Greys in Norfolk?}

_{As I have mentioned above it takes several years for this nail to grow out and a goose can breed at 3, so it is quite possible for a breeding bird to have a black nail. Yet in comparison to the birds at the top end of the Greylag lifespan (30 years) still be classed as young birds, in my book anyway.}

_{Here is a pic I took of 4 greys we shot this week. With a couple of this years birds on the left, a bird of about 3 years in the middle and a birds I would guess to be about 5 on the right. You can see the change from yellow to orange and also the black tip growing out on the older birds.}

_{I don't doubt that some Greys do not have any dark nail at all, but a good number do.}

 

_{IMG_0029 by mj robson, on Flickr}

[anser2]

Mark , the greys we get in Norfolk are mainly ferals with a Scottish orgin and wild Dutch \ Orkney birds. Few Icelantic greylags make it this far south. As for the black nail on the bill I have been looking closely for this feature and find it scarce in this area and both adult and juvenile birds can show it or have no sign of it. Some of the adults have been ganders with families so their age is 3 years plus.

 

Aurther Cadman first told me how to age geese and it works for all species. First year birds always have a split and notched tail feathers , but moult some of them during the late winter , but there is always one or two tail feathers present until the first moult when the birds are about 1 year old. After that second year and older geese have neat pointed tail feathers. Try checking the tails of the geese you get with birds with black bill nails.

 

In the early winter the cheast and flanks usually show two shades of grey feathers showing a sharp contrast , but as new feathers moult during the winter this is lost. Have a look at greylag photos of live flocks on various websites and you will find again black nailed greys are not very common.

 

 

You can sex geese when in family groups by their behaviour within the family group - the gander is more viligant and agressive towards others in the flock. He will usually be a fair bit larger than the female. When a goose is alone its almost impossible to sex in the field.

 

When in the hand the ganders have a much stronger groving on the neck than the females , but this is not always easy to see in the field.

Edited October 28, 2012 by anser2

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks for all the replies, very interesting to read Haven't had a grey since the start of september but shot quite a few pinks. The tail feather thing seems to work.

 

The yearlings are the only ones I will bother plucking these days which is why I was wanting to know how to age them. The annoying thing is the skin seems to tear really easy on them! But at least that helps confirm that it's a younger bird.