Myth busting day!

[Underdog]

Someone once was short of wads for their 410 and was keen to use it, I suggested tissue paper as a temp wad. Some nearly fell over with laughter!

 

Others since have said fibre wads and nitro with no nitro card separating them will cause the fibre wad to burn away! Well I have loaded fibre wads on nitro direct with very acceptable results but alas as I am no expert it or I am not or can not be creditable! What ever!

 

So today I set about proving the experts wrong.

I loaded a hull with Alliant Green dot after some deliberation and cross referencing for the charge weight.

I did not use any cards between the toilet tissue and powder, you will see some O/S cards under the shot purely to make the height up for the case closure.

Just to twist some folks panties up in a real tight knot the primer was un-known!

 

The performance of the load was mild, pretty much just what I was expecting in fact, not being an expert I don't have a chronograph but just use simple background experience to deduce what is good enough.

This round was good enough for what could be called normal pigeon or rabbit shooting. The small target was thirty paces away, I doubt the pellets would go through two sides of a bean can....to some a pathetic way of deducing down range pellet power but hey hoe! The load was 1oz of No7. The case ejected fine and action cycling was good but a little slow.

 

Yes there was confetti and some is visible in the video. So what! Is this loading method being promoted by me as a replacement for using correct components? No of course not!

The confetti by the way showed absolutely no sign of burning, not even a hint of a burning smell even!

 

All be it one cartridge I stand by my previous comments that;

 

1. A wad will not burn from pressure, fire or what ever if not protected by a nitro card.

 

2. Tissue paper can be used as a wad if one simply had too.

 

Check the pictures and video.....if you want that is

 

http://s117.photobucket.com/user/Nath_bucket/library/paperwad

 

Underwad.

 

[Guest cookoff013]

hey underdog.

 

i think this video and that was for me?

who would have known? maybe with some decent components you could have made a proper shell ?

 

so i did alittle research into some stuff, well it transpires that 75% of the shells powder is spent in the first millisecond(in chamber), and that is even before the main peak !

i cant see any powder being intact after whacking a good 10,000psi through it. the main peak is pressure, a millisecond later burns the rest , pressure is the measure of gas. not powder.

 

once the powder has converted to gas, thats it it cant burn any more.

i also discovered that the pressure is always decreasing from the 1". and still could be anything of upto 25-5% of the original pressure. that pressure is the mesurement of gas. not burning.

 

most shells need some pressure over the powders minimal needs. for instance i say again alliant extralite will pop at 7000psi clean where as longshot / bluedot need a damn good 10000psi to just start get going.

 

i can honestly say if thats what you seriously expect from a cartridge / toilet paper, maybe you should either rethink reloading or convince eley of your andrex shells.

just because something left the barrel, doesnt mean its any good. i bet it has extreme variation in pressure and speed, hardly worth it. you spent 14p on powder, 3p primer, 0.5p andrex and 8p in lead, that works out as a £270/k shell, are you really happy with that?

plastic even takes a beating with nitro powders.

 

can you be sure that the wad was not destroyed by pressure / burning? cos i bet it is well mullered.

 

on my little research, i noted that all nitro powders are called "progressive" even the real quick ones. the fact is some are "more" or "less" progressive. this was a term used when nitro powders first started being used and that includes the powders that originally replaced black powder. when BP was replaced it was replaced with powders that were made the be 1/2 the density, so were always labelled as progressive.

 

black powder burns all the way down the barrel, it burns at the same rate as it does in confinement and out in the open.

 

nitro burns faster (produces pressure) with confinement, a barrel of a gun is not a bomb, but the powder burns really fast. not as fast as an explosion. a gunbarrel is open (the chamber to muzzel) as thats where the gasses go.

 

the reason people use proper components is to produce decent shells, that includes reducing SD figures of speed and pressure variation. i recon your andrex shells "may" fail cip on variation alone.

so you are saying that any new reloader can cram some powder and triple layerd quilted TP into a shell and have perfectly usable and safe shells? is that the real message you are sending?

just because a shell ejects, doesnt mean diddley. as for the speed, great, you had something leave a gunbarrel.

 

could you test your shells via a transducer? and chrono? with a 10 shot string? i do that before i even make a decision to "give out the data".

 

the slow burning powders for large lead and steel loads give up the gasses slower, but a millisecond later. because the volume for the gas to expand into, the volumes and or densitys of steel means there is less roome for the gasses to expand into, before the crimp releases.

 

why dont you support or endorse safe relaoding?

[Underdog]

hey underdog.

 

i think this video and that was for me?

who would have known? maybe with some decent components you could have made a proper shell ?

 

so i did alittle research into some stuff, well it transpires that 75% of the shells powder is spent in the first millisecond(in chamber), and that is even before the main peak !

i cant see any powder being intact after whacking a good 10,000psi through it. the main peak is pressure, a millisecond later burns the rest , pressure is the measure of gas. not powder.

 

once the powder has converted to gas, thats it it cant burn any more.

i also discovered that the pressure is always decreasing from the 1". and still could be anything of upto 25-5% of the original pressure. that pressure is the mesurement of gas. not burning.

 

most shells need some pressure over the powders minimal needs. for instance i say again alliant extralite will pop at 7000psi clean where as longshot / bluedot need a damn good 10000psi to just start get going.

 

i can honestly say if thats what you seriously expect from a cartridge / toilet paper, maybe you should either rethink reloading or convince eley of your andrex shells.

just because something left the barrel, doesnt mean its any good. i bet it has extreme variation in pressure and speed, hardly worth it. you spent 14p on powder, 3p primer, 0.5p andrex and 8p in lead, that works out as a £270/k shell, are you really happy with that?

plastic even takes a beating with nitro powders.

 

can you be sure that the wad was not destroyed by pressure / burning? cos i bet it is well mullered.

 

on my little research, i noted that all nitro powders are called "progressive" even the real quick ones. the fact is some are "more" or "less" progressive. this was a term used when nitro powders first started being used and that includes the powders that originally replaced black powder. when BP was replaced it was replaced with powders that were made the be 1/2 the density, so were always labelled as progressive.

 

black powder burns all the way down the barrel, it burns at the same rate as it does in confinement and out in the open.

 

nitro burns faster (produces pressure) with confinement, a barrel of a gun is not a bomb, but the powder burns really fast. not as fast as an explosion. a gunbarrel is open (the chamber to muzzel) as thats where the gasses go.

 

the reason people use proper components is to produce decent shells, that includes reducing SD figures of speed and pressure variation. i recon your andrex shells "may" fail cip on variation alone.

so you are saying that any new reloader can cram some powder and triple layerd quilted TP into a shell and have perfectly usable and safe shells? is that the real message you are sending?

just because a shell ejects, doesnt mean diddley. as for the speed, great, you had something leave a gunbarrel.

 

could you test your shells via a transducer? and chrono? with a 10 shot string? i do that before i even make a decision to "give out the data".

 

the slow burning powders for large lead and steel loads give up the gasses slower, but a millisecond later. because the volume for the gas to expand into, the volumes and or densitys of steel means there is less roome for the gasses to expand into, before the crimp releases.

 

why dont you support or endorse safe relaoding?

So much to reply too

Pressure is not just the measure of gas. It is a measure of force.

 

Once the powder has chemically converted to a gas, it(the gas) is still burning, the locked molecules in the powder when excited by the primer allow the molecules to mix, when mixed and in a state of flux plus an extra amount of oxygen being produced a huge gas is produced rapidly resulting in a force of pressure. Pressure from heat.

A steam engine uses Heat to produce steam, however and work gained from pressure on a piston or vane is not from direct combustion, it is water vapour pressure, not a single gas!

Oil in a hydraulic system is not gas.

The water in my heating system is not gas but is under pressure.

 

I think you are at some point trying to point out a loaded cartridge with smokeless needs a latent pressure prior to ignition, if so then yes....I know.

 

I don't wish to advocate this method of loading at all, I do make that perfectly clear. I do state in no way doing this should replace using correct components.

I have only attempted to test your statement of a fibre wad will burn at 10000psi, maybe it will but not in a shotgun barrel....it has not got the time and I have proved it, there was absolutely no evidence of burning....even on bog roll. It was you that used the term `burn` was it?

 

Errr....no this is not what I expect from a cartridge and have no plans to do a production run of these.

 

The wad was destroyed on exit of the barrel, the pattern on the card suggests a result of a useful pattern, totally inconsequential as no further production is needed. The experiment busted your assumption that a soft wad will combust with out a nitro card, it did not combust! In all honesty where was the wad to go? Compressed between the immense pressure and shot......disappear as by magic!

A wad what ever it is made of is just a piston.....yes just as in engines, some piston designs are better than others.

 

I did tell you all smokeless powders are progressive in the week

 

Sorry, not got a transducer.....got an old transformer for a train set somewhere.....any good?

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I whole heartily advocate proper loading procedures with correct components and data from a trusted source. Please do not be tempted to try whacky stuff in your cartridges like carrot or banana's and oatmeal.

 

If Cookoff gave me a recipe I would totally trust his data (after a little check maybe )

 

U

[deershooter]

So much to reply too

Pressure is not just the measure of gas. It is a measure of force.

 

Once the powder has chemically converted to a gas, it(the gas) is still burning, the locked molecules in the powder when excited by the primer allow the molecules to mix, when mixed and in a state of flux plus an extra amount of oxygen being produced a huge gas is produced rapidly resulting in a force of pressure. Pressure from heat.

A steam engine uses Heat to produce steam, however and work gained from pressure on a piston or vane is not from direct combustion, it is water vapour pressure, not a single gas!

Oil in a hydraulic system is not gas.

The water in my heating system is not gas but is under pressure.

 

I think you are at some point trying to point out a loaded cartridge with smokeless needs a latent pressure prior to ignition, if so then yes....I know.

 

I don't wish to advocate this method of loading at all, I do make that perfectly clear. I do state in no way doing this should replace using correct components.

I have only attempted to test your statement of a fibre wad will burn at 10000psi, maybe it will but not in a shotgun barrel....it has not got the time and I have proved it, there was absolutely no evidence of burning....even on bog roll. It was you that used the term `burn` was it?

 

Errr....no this is not what I expect from a cartridge and have no plans to do a production run of these.

 

The wad was destroyed on exit of the barrel, the pattern on the card suggests a result of a useful pattern, totally inconsequential as no further production is needed. The experiment busted your assumption that a soft wad will combust with out a nitro card, it did not combust! In all honesty where was the wad to go? Compressed between the immense pressure and shot......disappear as by magic!

A wad what ever it is made of is just a piston.....yes just as in engines, some piston designs are better than others.

 

I did tell you all smokeless powders are progressive in the week

 

Sorry, not got a transducer.....got an old transformer for a train set somewhere.....any good?

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I whole heartily advocate proper loading procedures with correct components and data from a trusted source. Please do not be tempted to try whacky stuff in your cartridges like carrot or banana's and oatmeal.

 

If Cookoff gave me a recipe I would totally trust his data (after a little check maybe )

 

U

Personally I would not follow underdog advise out of idle qurosity

 

Deershooter

[Underdog]

Personally I would not follow underdog advise out of idle qurosity

 

Deershooter

what advise was that Deershooter?

[Guest cookoff013]

have you really tested 10,000psi with greendot? unless you have used 25-26graind of powder under an ounce you havent even got close to 10,000psi.

i checked the alliant website ~9200psi is 24.5 grains or so.

 

i would keep the transformer for the trainset.

 

would you try a recipe if i`m the only guy distrubuting data for that powder? thats whats happening with the ba10 i`m using.

[Underdog]

have you really tested 10,000psi with greendot? unless you have used 25-26graind of powder under an ounce you havent even got close to 10,000psi.

i checked the alliant website ~9200psi is 24.5 grains or so.

 

i would keep the transformer for the trainset.

 

would you try a recipe if i`m the only guy distrubuting data for that powder? thats whats happening with the ba10 i`m using.

No Sir, I did intentionally stay away from 10000psi.

 

The OP in the other thread never indicated what pressure he wished to work with/at. So possibly/maybe with just suitable fibre wads he could if he so wanted develop a working load. However if I remember correctly he just had nitro cards so it does not matter which is where the confusion started when you said something about a fibre wad burns at 10000psi and the lead will not be driven.

I knew that is not a rule as I had done it for myself in the past, hence the crude demo(yes it is very crude and ABSOLUTLY NOT RECOMENDED). No wadding was burnt and the lead was definitely errr driven.....with authority too...I might add!

 

Train set

 

I am ignorant as to what BA10 is Sir, but if it is a powder that only you have used and drawn some tables up and diligently had them tested then yes, yes I would use your hard gained knowledge and thank you for it whole heartedly

 

U

[Guest cookoff013]

ba10 is a different beast of a powder. it is primarily a pistol powder, it burns extremely fast and is in the top 6 for burn rate.

greendot is in the 44th position.

 

http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

 

it is quite the fastest powder i`ve ever used, and i use it to light loads in 12gauge, it gives higher pressures (#safepressures) and runs in a 12gauge quite well. the only downside to it it is really low volume. due to nits density.

its a low bullet weight pistol powder, especially .38spl.

 

a little goes along way.i`ve used 15 grains for 1oz loads plastic.

i`m trying 13grains in a fibre format (i`ve got to get tested)

 

so the economics are quite cool, 15 grains and it still shoots 1300fps ! hows that for economics? 1050 shells per kg. !

i`ve not drawn up data tables but the data is distrubuted. its available.

 

ok, the downside to ba10, is is needs tall wadding, 2x powdercards and 20mm fibre. but when you`re squeezing 1000+ shells a couple a quid for powdercards is peanuts.

it probbly could be put in 65mm hulls, and used. but i cant advise that without shooting some through a pressure.unit.

 

i`ve had a few loads fail. one o completely cooked it. the other failed on a cip stats, the other was too hot (21gram / 21gram fibre loads.)

 

my dillgently testing is the same that the big boys do, full proof runs, 10 shell shotstrings and conformaty to cip. data thats tighter than a ducks "orange cavity"

 

personally greendot would be my least favourite powder for anything but 36g loads in 12gauge. but that is my personal oppinion.

[Underdog]

Very interesting ......How come it failed on the lighter load of 21g when you have a successful 28g load?

 

Oh and err Green dot ain't my favourite too. Not for 12g anyway and fibre wads!

 

U

[Old farrier]

Hi bit off topic but

Want to load some black powder shotgun cartridges but not sure on primers I assume a slow burn or is there a primer specific to bp

Many thanks value your opinion on this

All the best

Of

[Guest cookoff013]

it failed because there was too much pressure.

 

its because i did a few start loads to give me a starting place.

 

load #1 failed because i totally cooked it, lets just say it was high pressure and high speed.

#2 passed, 24g shell.

 

#3 was a load to try and find the powder amount to get the pressure limit. from my previous successes at proof. even loading less powder and fibre wads caused over pressure. (i got so close to passing it is not funny. lets just say it failed by only 15 bar.)

 

#4 was an experimental load near identical to #3, tiny ammnt of powder more completely cooked it.

 

#5 was an economic experiment., goal- 1000 shells per kg (igot 1050), 15 grain charge and 1300fps (2.5m) hardly anything to write home about. 2kg, does 2000 shells.

 

#6 to be tested.

#7 is a retest of #3

 

i`m trying to find a decent 21g fibre homeload, 1oz subsonic, and general fun, with a powder.

[DerbyshireDale.]

C'mon lads, the school Bell has sounded, time to go home and "perhaps" do some actual shooting instead of fighting in the playground!!

[Underdog]

Hi bit off topic but

Want to load some black powder shotgun cartridges but not sure on primers I assume a slow burn or is there a primer specific to bp

Many thanks value your opinion on this

All the best

Of

No Sir, any standard primer is fine with Black powder, a dab of super glue will cut and sooty blow back into the action right down too.

 

U