Saami vs cip

[hatsanmad]

Hi guys i hear alot about saami specs ect. I have googled saami and read bits on there page ect but non of it makes any sense to me.

So could someone in the know please explain and dumb down what saami is and what there specs are please?

Regards hatsan

[saddler]

Narrow it down a bit.

Any caliber in mind or all of them?

 

May be above your head as it's industry specific jargonese.

Dumbing down the manufacture of ammunition is not a happy combination.

 

Read a couple of decent reloading guides & start from there.

[Guest cookoff013]

Saami have set criteria same as cip. In 12 the limit is 12-70mm 740 bar but saami have 11500 psi limit.

Cip have 1.15 x cip limits s2n variation that's a 5% prediction of the upper pressures.

 

Saami have map, lot mean, etc.

[hatsanmad]

Sorry for 12gauge steel shot to be exact.

[hatsanmad]

Cooks so does that mean saami allow for more regarding pressures compared to are cip guidelines?

[Guest cookoff013]

Higher pressures but different variations.

 

All the specs are to reduce extreme variation. Average doesn't say diddley

[hatsanmad]

Ok thanks. So what are the potential benefits of following saami specs over cip?

[MAB1954]

All the American published data is to SAAMI thus with 12 gauge steel loads some will be out of CIP spec because CIP have a max velocity of 1430fps [i think that's right sure some one will correct me if its wrong]. My view is as long as you are using a modern gun designed for steel and in sound condition it will not matter if the cartridge is to SAAMI or CIP spec.

[Guest cookoff013]

All the American published data is to SAAMI thus with 12 gauge steel loads some will be out of CIP spec because CIP have a max velocity of 1430fps [i think that's right sure some one will correct me if its wrong]. My view is as long as you are using a modern gun designed for steel and in sound condition it will not matter if the cartridge is to SAAMI or CIP spec.

Correct.

Although 2016 saami updated the specs. They are the same as before but the nontoxic standards are to include 1700fps + loads in steel.

Saami 3.5" steel is 14000psi map.

There would be no valid reason to discount any valid governing body. Although I wouldn't home made saami data without the s2n calculation.

 

The HP 1050 bar criteria is higher than saami

[TONY R]

The whole endless debate around CIPvs SAMI pressures is a frought with complications, and any proffing will have some areas that fall through the hoops unchalenged and we the shooters can miss out on potentialy improved performance by obeying some rules to the letter of the text.

The sami limit for ten bore is an obvious one, the alleged safe limits were set for older guns not more modern ten bores like SP10s BGH 10s etc.

These guns are quite safe well over the 10 500psi sami limit, a safe limit for these guns could be perhaps 12 000 psi but just because older guns exist and people could technicaly load higher presure ammo in an old timer the limit is left low.

Where as take the 3.5 inch 12 bore which as not been around near as long as the ten, and these make use of a much higher presure limit under sami, and can on paper in any case out perform the sami limit loaded ten bore.

 

With that cassual observation noted, i submit here a practical explanation cut and pasted from Australia, the text of which is a good outline and sumary of the rules.

 

ntroduction

Australian hunters use a wide range of shotguns and shotshells for waterfowl hunting, usually equipment originating from European or American manufacturers.

In the past most hunters have probably given little consideration to the issue of shotgun proofing and shotshell chamber pressures when purchasing new guns and ammunition. However, the use of steel shot has raised some new questions about shotshell compatibility for use with existing firearms, particularly those of European origin.

This fact sheet reproduces material from British and American sources to provide guidance to hunters purchasing steel shot for the first time. It is necessary to understand the issues from both the British (or European) perspective as well the American perspective.

Twelve European countries are members of the International Proof Commission (CIP) who form a regulatory body for firearms and ammunition. The decisions made by CIP are legally binding on all governments of member countries. No such regulatory body exists in Australia. In America their Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI) acts as their recognised standards provider.

The Victorian Hunting Advisory Committee (HAC) wrote to Australian product manufacturers and suppliers seeking advice about how their products compared to the CIP standards, in particular those products which they were intending to market in Victoria.

In response, information was obtained from the USA industry and SAAMI sources to provide the paper which is reproduced in full below, under the heading "The American Perspective". "The European perspective", has been prepared with a collection of extracts from published papers to a British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) seminar held on non-toxic shot, at the Royal Military College of Science, Birmingham, in May 1996.

The European perspective

The CIP has been working since 1914 for the standardisation of proof of firearms. This also involves standardisation of methods used to measure the pressure of ammunition, chamber and bore sizes, as well as setting the maximum cartridge service pressures and dimensions.

A CIP Working Group was set up to study the effects of steel in existing British and European shotguns and to provide limits of performance that, if complied with, would ensure a safe level of performance.

In 1992, after several years of study, the Working Group presented its findings which define levels of performance for what was defined as Standard Steel Shot Cartridges which could be used in any 12 gauge shotgun that had been nitro-proofed. A higher level of performance had been set for steel shot to be used in shotguns designed for steel shot and which have been Steel Shot proofed (see Diagram 1).

In deciding on the limits for Standard Steel Shot cartridges, CIP had to take into account the worst case condition of barrel strength and choke profile of existing shotguns, without the requirement for reproof, and with shotguns of different age, make and construction. Not only were limits set for pressure, velocity, momentum and shot size, to take into account the worst condition of barrel strength and section, but also the steepest angle of choke and also the possibility of full choke in one of the barrels.

SAAMI's limits, by comparison, are set for modern shotguns of robust construction, or specifically designed for steel shot, and with the generally understood view that steel shot is not fired through fully choked barrels.

The American perspective Introduction

The following is an over-view of Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI) guidelines concerning the manufacture and use of steel shot ammunition in firearms in the United States. Where possible, the SAAMI guidelines are compared to those of the Commission Internationalle Permanente (CIP).

This summary will start with basic information such as the make-up and purpose of SAAMI and CIP. Next, there will be discussion of steel shot versus lead shot and the performance parameters of both SAAMI and CIP. Specific issues such as proof requirements, shot size, velocity, etc. are covered. In closing, the state of the art in steel shot use and performance in the United States will be reviewed.

Throughout this report, both metric and US units of measurement will be discussed. Where relevant, both units of measurement will be shown. To ensure comparable analysis, following are the conversion factors (including relevant decimal places) that were used throughout this report.

1 Bar = 14.504 psi 1mm = 0.039 inch 1 m/s = 3.28 f/s 1 g = 15.432 grains

Background

SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the United States government to ensure safety in the use of firearms through standardisation of ammunition and firearm parameters. SAAMI consist of member companies representing United States ammunition, propellant, and firearms manufacturers. SAAMI is an accredited standards developer for the American National Standards Institute (ANSI).

For the United States, SAAMI establishes standards for firearm and ammunition dimensions, testing, definitive proof loads, and ammunition performance specifications. Compliance to the standards and, in the case of gun manufacturers, proof testing is conducted by the individual member companies that belong to SAAMI. Winchester is a member of SAAMI.

CIP is an international association of proof houses. The proof houses are government entities as the members of CIP are individual countries. Like SAAMI, CIP has established standards in dimensions, performance, and proof requirements. Unlike SAAMI, the proof house in each member country interprets the CIP requirements and performs all the required testing. Individual companies cannot be members of CIP.

The United States is not a member of CIP, as standards here are based on SAAMI. SAAMI and CIP have been co-operatively working together to establish universal international standards. However, at this timethere are numerous differences between SAAMI and CIP. These range from conversion and rounding factors between metric and US units, different pressure measuring systems – notably for centre fire products, to different standards of compatibility between ammunition and firearms. This latter difference is particularly noticeable in steel shot firearm proofing and use requirements. This document will focus on safety and proofing methods only. Dimensional and ammunition performance will not be compared, unless directly relevant to the point in hand.

Technical discussion

In SAAMI, the safety/compatibility of a firearm and ammunition is controlled through chamber pressure. For 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition, SAAMI established 11,500 psi (793 bar) as the maximum test pressure of an ammunition sample of 10 shots fired at time of loading. NOTE: this value is for all shot shell products manufactured for 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition; lead shot – all shot sizes, buck shot – all shot sizes, slugs – all types, AND steel shot – all shot sizes. This makes sense in that the same firearm may be used with all these product types (see Diagram 1).

SAAMI established definitive proof pressure level by statistical calculation based on the pressure limit per above to ensure the minimum average proof pressure exceeds the maximum average working pressure of the cartridge. These pressures substantially exceed those developed by normal service loads and are designed to stress firearms components which contain the cartridge in order to ensure safety in the recommended use of the firearm during its service life.

For 12 gauge 2-3/4" and 3" ammunition, the SAAMI definitive proof load pressure is 19,000 psi (1,310 bar) minimum average and 20,500 psi (1,413 bar) maximum average. This range of definitive proof pressure applies for every gun, independent of action type (over/under, side x side, pump, semi-auto, single shot) or intended use (including steel shot and lead shot).

As an over-view, SAAMI looks at the safety/compatibility of gun and ammunition as a factor of stress to the firearm through the cartridge pressure. The cartridge pressure is established at the time it is loaded and is controlled to a specified level.

The gun is proofed at a significantly higher level. The gun does not know if lead shot, steel shot, buck shot, or a slug is being fired. The gun sees metal stress as applied by the internal pressure of the cartridge.

CIP varies from SAAMI in its approach to gun proofing, notably singling out steel shot loads.

CIP not only considers chamber pressure but also places restrictions on shot velocity, shot size, momentum (shot weight x velocity) and choke restriction. The following are opinions from a SAAMI/United States perspective on these extra CIP requirements.

Standard steel/high performance steel ammunition and proof chamber pressure

CIP sets two levels of chamber pressure for steel shot classification and proof: Standard Steel Shot and High Performance Steel Shot. The Standard Steel Shot has a maximum average pressure of 740 bar (10,733 psi). This maximum average is below the limit for all 12 gauge shells (11,500 psi) in the United States – lead and steel. The proof level for Standard Steel Shot, 1,200 bar (17,405 psi) is also below the proof level of all 12 gauge guns (lead and steel) in the United States.

The High Performance Steel Shot has a maximum average pressure of 1,050 bar (15,229 psi). This maximum average is significantly higher than all 12 gauge shells in the United States – lead and steel, even including the new 3-1/2" loads. The proof level for High Performance Steel Shot, 1,370 bar (19,870 psi), actually falls right in the middle of the United States proof load specification (19,000 to 20,500 psi). Note that from a SAAMI standpoint, this CIP High Performance proof level is low for the actual working pressure of the service loads (see Diagram 1).

Maximum velocity

CIP sets a maximum velocity for each of the steel shot levels; 400 m/s (1,312 f/s) for Standard Steel Shot, and 430 m/s (1,410 f/s) for High Performance Steel Shot. SAAMI has not limits on velocity. Since chamber pressure is established at time of loading, for ANY shot weight load, the stress on the chamber applied by the cartridge is established and controlled. In studies conducted over the last 25 years, it has been found that stress to the choke and choke tubes will generally increase with velocity. However, the amount of stress is actually controlled by the complete cartridge system, most importantly the steel shot wad design. From a SAAMI/United States perspective, velocity is independent of chamber stress as long as the pressure is controlled properly, and damage to choke tubes cannot be controlled by velocity alone since wad design is the significant controlling parameter.

Shot size

CIP sets limits on maximum shot size. SAAMI has no limits on shot size. The reasons are identical to those discussed under Maximum Velocity above. Note it is very common in the United States to use shot sizes larger than CIP maximum. Again, from a SAAMI/United States perspective, the concern with shot size relates to potential choke damage and this is controlled through wad design.

Maximum momentum (shot weight multiplied by velocity)

CIP sets limits on maximum momentum. SAAMI has no limits on momentum. SAAMI has no explanation why momentum would be limited but suspects it is another attempt to control choke deformations as with velocity and shot size limits.

Maximum choke restriction

CIP sets a maximum choke constriction of 0.5mm (0.0195 inch) for High Performance Steel only. This

This correlates roughly to a modified choke in United States terminology. SAAMI has no restriction on choke size used for steel shot. It is common knowledge, and recommended by firearm manufacturers, that there is no reason to fire steel shot in a choke tighter than modified. This is for two reasons: there is no performance (pattern) improvement with steel shot in tighter than modified chokes; and the ighter choke will result in more strain to the choke. As previously mentioned, with proper wad design choke strain is controlled. Under worse case condition of load design, gun metal strength, choke constriction, and usage (number of shots fired) there is the possibility of the choke constriction being deformed after extensive firing. This will normally result in the inside diameter of the choke opening up a slight amount, possibly also showing a visible bulge on the barrel exterior. Note that this has no impact on safety or even gun performance with steel shot, but could open up patterns slightly with lead shot fired in the same gun (no safety issue).

Conclusion

To summarise, there is a significant difference in the approach taken by SAAMI and CIP in respect to steel shot performance and firearm proofing methods. SAAMI sets limits based on chamber pressure of the cartridge, independent of the type of shot charge being fired.

CIP has established two different pressure levels for steel shot. The first, Standard Steel Shot, is lower in maximum pressure than all SAAMI products, including lead shot. The second, called High Performance Steel Shot, actually has service pressure far in excess of SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch service loads. Interestingly though, the CIP proof level for these products is much less severe (lower) than SAAMI would set for a similar service pressure.

In practice, all SAAMI 12 gauge 2-3/4 inch and 3 inch cartridges have service pressures that fall inbetween the two grades for steel shot established by CIP.

CIP has established multiple other criteria that from a SAAMI viewpoint have no impact on gun safety as defined as stress to the action. A best guess is that these ancillary criteria were established in an effort to control choke deformation. Choke deformation is not a safety issue and, unfortunately, the parameters controlled by CIP will not guarantee there is no choke damage. The significant system parameter that controls choke deformation is wad design.

Steel shot cartridges have advanced significantly in design and performance over the past 25 years. Items of concern early in the steel shot era included barrel and choke damage and poorer performance than standard lead loads. We have learned that steel shot must be approached as a total components system.

Currently manufactured American steel shot cartridges are closer than ever to lead shot performance and are safe in any firearm manufactured to SAAMI criteria.

HAC summary

The following diagram has been prepared by the HAC from the information provided above to assist in interpreting chamber pressures and proof pressures applying under the SAAMI standards and the CIP regulations.

Diagram 1: Chamber Pressure and Proof Limits for SAAMI Standards and CIP Regulations

Australia does not have proofing houses where we can pressure test our guns (as in Europe), nor do we have a standards association like the American Institute (SAAMI). We are therefore, by default, under the influence of both, when we buy and use imported European and American manufactured products. There are no relevant controls on what is brought into and sold on the Australian market. All American 12 gauge 2¾" & 3" shot shells are manufactured to a set upper limit for chamber pressure, and all their guns are built to accommodate these pressures with a wide safety margin. We are advised that steel loads in America are manufactured to the same maximum pressure limits as their current lead counterparts.

In Europe, their regulatory body (CIP) has developed two standards for steel shot shells, called Standard loads and High Performance loads. Like America, these standards include limits for chamber pressure, but also include velocity, momentum and shot size. CIP believe these regulatory standards are necessary to ensure the steel shot marketed in CIP countries is matched to the range of firearms they make and use in Europe.

SAAMI suggest the last three of these CIP standards appear to be controls to limit the chance of choke swelling in thin-wall barrelled and tightly choked guns. The American manufacturers believe these additional controls still may not eliminate the possibility of choke swelling - in their opinion, it is the design of the wad that is the most significant controlling parameter.

So, from a user safety perspective, it would seem we should apply the same precautionary rules for selecting steel shot cartridges as we should when selecting lead shot cartridges. That is, we should be using a gun which is safe for the chamber pressure generated, irrespective of the shot type in the load.

In addition though, ballisticians around the world do agree there is an increased risk of choke swelling in tightly choked guns and recommend hunters should consider having these chokes opened a little in existing guns when using steel shot, or consider the installation of interchangeable choke tube systems.

European gun manufacturers and retailers are often including "proofed for steel" in their advertising for new guns. We can take this to mean that the barrels and choke tubes have been constructed to ensure choke swelling does not occur, and that higher chamber pressures can be safely used from the CIP's High Performance group. It does not mean that an existing gun, without this proof stamp, is inherently unsafe to use steel loads which generate lower chamber pressures, comparable to existing lead shot loads. If in doubt about your gun – see a competent gunsmith.

It has to be acknowledged that this is a less than perfect arrangement for the Australian hunter. But we can take some reassurance from the practical experience of steel shot use in Australia. After nearly a decade of non-toxic shot use in South Australia and the Northern Territory and several years of use in Victoria, no user safety or gun damage incidences have been reported from its use.

If you are in any doubt over your shotgun's ability to use non-toxic alternatives (especially steel), consult a qualified gunsmith or your firearm's manufacturer.

[Guest cookoff013]

whist that is really informative, it doesnt say which is best. i would personally use cip HP criteria, that extra "up to 15220 psi" can really make stuff shift, thats the 1050bar average.

faster more consistent powders can be used, whilst fast speed isnt always the desire.

 

the 740 bar limit is not too far from saami though.

 

it is the statistics that are very hard to beat.

[TONY R]

I look at both and try and draw a happy middle ground conclusion on what i do, i do push the tens over CIP or SAMI specs, To my own self imposed limit. It is on your own wildcat loading but as i mentioned tens are made a little tougher now than they were 100 years ago, and the limits drawn up by SAMI are there to take into account Grandads old lefever nittro or LC Smith from 50 or more yeares ago.

I Am all for safety if we dont stay safe the nanny state we live in will jump in and restrict or ban reloading, but i must say many do pay far too much attention to tests by the proff house and wont consider a load thats not tested and documented.

This is all very admarable in theory but not so much in the real world where lot to lot variations of the same titled powder can put many tested loads way over pressure with powder from the next lot numbber.

A steel and its comercial variants are good examples of this point, lot 2 A STEEL bears very little regarding its data with lot 24 the most recent lot i have seen. Load Alliants own data from 2002 witth lot 24 powder and get ready for trouble.

Tested loads are not only expensive but can lull one into a false scense of security, we should never get complacent tested data or not monitoring lots of powder carefully and reducing initial loads when using a new lot or batch of powder and creeping up on the load data charge is the only safe way.

All to many times i hear people say whell i have never had a problem with X charge in X load, and i can mirror these observations, but put those through a test gun and watch the variations it can be thought provoking and i am being conservative with my coments here. Reloading is as safe as you make it no more.

[Guest cookoff013]

i`m on the bandwagon of "test it". i do air that quite extensively. to a point i have gone to the extreme.

why do i test stuff. well.......

 

test data is derived from a numpty, like me putting x-y-z in a shell, send it off to go bang and some guy to run stats on it.

putting stuff in a hull, and then declaring is the point where it can go wrong. then the stats are a kind of summary, then a ok / not ok mark.

 

loads vary and that info is not represented in the averages / published recipes. if that load varies too close to the limit it will fail, if the load just strait refuses to be consistent will fail, because what the cip / governing body does it tests the likelihood of the highest pressure.

that is the upper 2.5% of a production run. that is 2 standard deviations. the more shells you test the more likley the data is represented in that test run.

thats not listed. saami have different limits. (but they are close enough).

[UK fowler]

yes I tend to agree with tony as a home loader the only part of the cip/saami im interested in is the HP pressure limit, all my guns bar one are proof marked for 1050 bar HP steel even the 10G so I want all my home loads to run at there max where practical take the 23/4" 12g as a start point . 32gram steel loads at 740 bar do not give the speeds I am looking for and tend to fall short in the field push them up to the 800/900bar range and you can get 1450fps+ without any problem and in the field they give good results so why load the lesser? pointless we are not selling to the public we are loading for personal use and I want the best field loads I can put together for the guns I use

[TONY R]

See the variations and suden jumps in pressure all to often with some published or tested loads, some primers in some loads are the culprits on wide variations, i have never found CX2000 primers to work very well with bigger charges of A Steel the most consistent primers i have ever seen with A steel ...A381 are CCI 209Ms .

[hatsanmad]

Thanks very much tony for all that info i think im understanding it slightly better. And thank you cooks for your input aswell.

[TONY R]

yes I tend to agree with tony as a home loader the only part of the cip/saami im interested in is the HP pressure limit, all my guns bar one are proof marked for 1050 bar HP steel even the 10G so I want all my home loads to run at there max where practical take the 23/4" 12g as a start point . 32gram steel loads at 740 bar do not give the speeds I am looking for and tend to fall short in the field push them up to the 800/900bar range and you can get 1450fps+ without any problem and in the field they give good results so why load the lesser? pointless we are not selling to the public we are loading for personal use and I want the best field loads I can put together for the guns I use

We do need that speed with steel if you look on some of the American sites a few are trying to push slower steel loads, and they quote the fact shot slows down very fast after it leaves the barrel which is of course true.

But then you get the 100 extra FPS at terminal range being termed as pointless for the plus 300fps initial speed with all its accompanying presure and felt recoil and even allegedly bad patterns.

The true facts are if you use 1200 1300fps loads of steel BBBs in a ten on geese you might kill them clean, but use a 1500 to 1600fps load of the same size shot no might about it you will kill geese if you do your bit right and you will notice how that little extra speed makes all the difference at any practical ranges.

Steel needs speed and some times you have to stray from the fold a little, But knowing whats lurking in the next field helps you draw a safe line on how far you want to venture.

[UK fowler]

See the variations and suden jumps in pressure all to often with some published or tested loads, some primers in some loads are the culprits on wide variations, i have never found CX2000 primers to work very well with bigger charges of A Steel the most consistent primers i have ever seen with A steel ...A381 are CCI 209Ms .

interesting never used the cci primers the fed 209A and the rio 209 gave very good results for me with 381 but the cx2000 were very poor with charges over 40grains would be interesting to cross reference some 10g data

Edited April 19, 2016 by UK fowler

[TONY R]

The CCI 209Ms are not quite as hot in briscance as the Federal 209A, but it shows less variation in presure, and as for the Rios they are very good for a cheap budget primer, if i did not have so many CX2000s from the scraping days i would be all over the RIOs esspecialy for duck loads where there is less shot weight to help the burn with the Alliant steels.

If you think about it CSB0 was acctualy pretty good compared to A steel on ignition side of thjings, it did help with a hotter primer but not as much as Steel hot primers are all most mandatory with A Steel it you want it efficient.