ferretmanabu Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I've been trying to fit a new gun cabinet. Never done this before and I've never drilled holes into walls before. I bought some M8 rawl bolts, drilled with the correct sized drill but the sleeves don't stay put in the wall? What am I doing wrong and is there a solution without having to drill more holes? I used a hammer drill too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_zero Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I've been trying to fit a new gun cabinet. Never done this before and I've never drilled holes into walls before. I bought some M8 rawl bolts, drilled with the correct sized drill but the sleeves don't stay put in the wall? What am I doing wrong and is there a solution without having to drill more holes? I used a hammer drill too. Are you drilling in to old black mortar? Sounds like you have made the holes too big. I would try one of two things. 1) without the cabinet put the rawl bolts in to the holes and tighten them by hand, unscrew the bolts. If you lucky the out bit will have gripped the wall. You MIGHT be able to offer up the cabinet and carefully put the bolts in and tighten. If not. 2) I've squirted silicone sealant in to the holes in the past and pushed the bolts in to that. Leave for an hour or so and you should have enough friction to tighten the bolts. In my old house (built 1902) it was all black mortar and not that good for fixings. In my cottage ( built 1840 ) it even worse due to stone walls and mortar with hairs in it! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Try pushing a couple of matches in to the hole just to give you enough friction to get the bolts started turning the bolts should expand enough to crush the matches and lock nicely in to place. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Try pushing a couple of matches in to the hole just to give you enough friction to get the bolts started turning the bolts should expand enough to crush the matches and lock nicely in to place. Dave tut tut. do not use silicon or matches. if the are not gripping you need to get a tube of epoxy resin or chemical fix.. remember that the cabinet needs to be tight to the wall and matches/silicon will not do that(trust me im a joiner to trade) you possibly drilled the holes too big!!. you could get bigger rawlbolts m10s?. best to do it right and know that it is safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted August 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Thanks for the replies. The house is old; built circa 1900 and the drill bit is the exact size that the rawl bolt pack says it should be. Seems like the walls crumbling as I drill. I have tried the M10 rawl bolts but I've only managed to get one to work so far by hammering it in. For the other three holes the m10 is too big. Is there an M9 one at all cos I can't seem to be able to find it? The epoxy resin idea seems interesting. Is it complicated to work? Can't see how these rawlbolts work myself. They don't seem to expand much when I screw the bolt into the plug when its free anyway. You might have guessed, I'm not much good at diy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 I had the same problem when installing my cabinet. The way I got around it was to grip the raw bolt outercasing with a screwdriver,just get the head of the driver into the slot on the outer casing of the rawbolt, then screwed the bolt in. Once you have turned the screw a few times the casing will grip in the hole and off you go. I think the prob is caused by Lath and Plaster walls which are soft and I guess the hole is made slighty bigger when drilling Its a bit fidderly but mine been on the wall for 5 years now and still very solid Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 I had the same problem when installing my cabinet. The way I got around it was to grip the raw bolt outercasing with a screwdriver,just get the head of the driver into the slot on the outer casing of the rawbolt, then screwed the bolt in. Once you have turned the screw a few times the casing will grip in the hole and off you go. I think the prob is caused by Lath and Plaster walls which are soft and I guess the hole is made slighty bigger when drilling Its a bit fidderly but mine been on the wall for 5 years now and still very solid Good Luck lathe and plaster should not affect anything..... its ths stone or brick you are fixing into!!! as for the epoxy,you normally get it in a tube which you inject into the hole and then fit the bolt. or you get a glass tube version which has the chemical enclosed you insert into the hole then hammer the bolt which breaks the glass and sets off the epoxy. i have some cracking stuff here for it called hilti hit which will glue anything to anything. if you find some give me a shout and i will let you know if its any good ATB, jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 you will get chemical fix here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted August 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Thanks for that link. Looks like the kind of thing I need to use because the wall is very crumbly when I drill into it, hence the oversize holes! So how does it work then; do I chuck some of that stuff into the hole and then put the rawl bolt sleeve through and then tighten the bolt? Is it that simple and do I need to completely fill up the hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Thanks for that link. Looks like the kind of thing I need to use because the wall is very crumbly when I drill into it, hence the oversize holes! So how does it work then; do I chuck some of that stuff into the hole and then put the rawl bolt sleeve through and then tighten the bolt? Is it that simple and do I need to completely fill up the hole? you can do it a few ways. the best way i think is to offer the cabinet up to the wall then line up the bolts with the holes in the cabinet and with the holes in the wall then push the bolts through the cabinet and into the holes so that you are satisfied that the cabinet is level and all the bolts fit. then one by one remove the bolt and fill hole with resin then reinsert the bolt and wait for the resin to dry.. do this with with every bolt ONE BY ONE and wait till the resin is completley cured before tightning.. i would think that would be the best way to do it with maximum fixing strenth for that wall type. Hope this helps, ATB jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everhopefull Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Use coach bolts instead, far better than rawl bolts, if you use ones that are long enough, say 4-6" and a good diameter, they will take some shifting. The police in my area were quite happy for them to be used. Hope it helps. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 did you use the coach bolts with rawlplugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Slater Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Use coach bolts instead, far better than rawl bolts, if you use ones that are long enough, say 4-6" and a good diameter, they will take some shifting. The police in my area were quite happy for them to be used. Hope it helps. :( How did you get the coach bolts to bite in the wall? You don't mean coach screws do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushat Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 If you're using chemical fix then you just need a threaded stud into the hole/resin. Wait until it's cured then fit nut and tighten. Don't use resin with expansion fixings - especially not bolt type - as you'll not get enough resin in around the fixing (unless you drill a massive hole!) to give you a very secure hold, and once it's cured you'll have effectively locked the whole thing in place and you'll not be able to tighten things any further. Resin anchors and stud a great option for older, dusty brickwork though. ferratmanabu - most expansion fixings work by the bolt thread drawing a "wedge" into the sleeve/casing and expanding the sleeve. Matchsticks won't prevent you fitting the cabinet flush with the wall so will be fine, they'll just stop the casing turning in the hole and therefore allow you to tighten the bolt, drawing said wedge into casing. Once the bolt is tightened, they'll be thoroughly crushed and won't give you any more probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted August 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Ah ok. So if I'm using resin, then I need to forget about using the expanding sleeve. Do I just use something like this and just plug that into the resin filled hole and then tighten the nut? Seems the simplest thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everhopefull Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Apologies, yes I meant coach screws, use a plastic dowel to match the coach screw, tighten up with spanner or ratchet, and you won't shift it without pulling half the wall down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 i would think the coach screws would be ok,if you were fixing directly onto a block or brick wall. if it was stone or plaster coated i don`t think it would be good ATB, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cushat Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Ah ok. So if I'm using resin, then I need to forget about using the expanding sleeve. Do I just use something like this and just plug that into the resin filled hole and then tighten the nut? Seems the simplest thing. Your link isn't working for me - just use something like this: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.js...14&id=17513 And these are the type of resin capsules: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.js...23&id=27899 Obviously get matching sizes ;o) Drill hole, clean out crud with vacuum, insert glass capsule, fit stud into drill chuck, either tap stud into hole to break pasule or "drill" stud into hole slowly to break capsule, mix resin and ensure even distribution (depends on capsule type - they'll come with instructions), remove stud from drill chuck, ensure it's central in hole then leave to set - they won't go anywhere! To be honest though, if you've already got expanding fixings I'd just pack the hole a bit and use them. You only need to "hold" the sleeve in the hole initially until it expands slighly and starts to grip through friction. The holes tend to be oversize if the drill isn't held level, the drill bit is worn or you mess around with it too much in softer material. Drill smoothly in one go, vacuum out the crud and insert the fixing. Have fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 When I fixed my safe to the wall I used six long bolts (just under 6 inches) going into threaded sleeves. Before I screwed the bolts in, I squirted in some quick drying cement. I also put four long wood screws through the bottom of the safe and into the floor boards. the firearms officer who came around (true it was quite a small woman) hung off the door of the safe to try the grip and it didn't budge an inch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squodged Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Use some good strong wall bolts and bolt it in a corner out of sight. When the Inspector comes round he should be well chuffed! Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretmanabu Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Got the cabinet fitted in now. I got some thru bolts and used a vinylester resin which has approximately 20% cement or something in it too. Worked a treat and real easy too, especially if you mess up the drilling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritz Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I have a newly built house with paper walls... ok ok not quite paper but you get what I mean.. if you press it with your finger you put a hole through it... stupid new houses... anyway what do I do about bolting the safe onto that?? no mortar/bricks to dril into ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBLATCH Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 when you say you drilled hole with m8 bit,was the rawl bolt a tight fit ? if not move the cabinet an inch and use m7 bit to grip the tubular insert on the inner rawl.the chances are there is a slight bend in the bit you are using this is most common with cheap diy drill bits. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 when you say you drilled hole with m8 bit,was the rawl bolt a tight fit ? if not move the cabinet an inch and use m7 bit to grip the tubular insert on the inner rawl.the chances are there is a slight bend in the bit you are using this is most common with cheap diy drill bits. good luck is it a timber framed house?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlsd Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I have a newly built house with paper walls... ok ok not quite paper but you get what I mean.. if you press it with your finger you put a hole through it... stupid new houses... anyway what do I do about bolting the safe onto that?? no mortar/bricks to dril into ? sorry is it a timber framed house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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