Scarey thought about ID Cards!

[starlight32]

Just for the record with the continuing reference to Nazi Germany and I.D cards, you are just referencing old hat which was implied under a totally different regime. So do you think there was no I.D cards in the Soviet union under Stalin, or in Italy under Mussolini?

 

There was a very elaborate I.D system in the soviet union which defined you as a political,religious or class threat and the penalties were just as severe for non production upon request.

 

In 1945 on May 1 alone in the soviet sector of Berlin according to Zukhov's war diaries,

 

17 soldiers (Russian)of junior rank were executed today by firing squad for 'non production of Identification when challenged'

 

Exactly. Any ID card law, just like extended detention without trial might not be misused by this government, or the government after that. The problem is that once it is on the statute books and precident has been set, it is open to abuse.

 

Some, myself included, would argue that the lot we have now are bent enough to use such laws against the public when it suits them:

 

Someone mentioned Walter Wolfgang, the old guy who got bundled out of the labour party conference for shouting "nonsence". When he tried to return, he was detained under section 44 of the terrorism act. Similarly, there was a lass who threw eggs at Prescott's tour bus and got arrested right here in Rushden. Why was she protesting? Against the ban on hunting. Under what law was she held? The terrorism act.

 

So there we have it, a pensioner arrested under anti terrorism laws for nothing more than causing very minor embarrasment to a politician, and a pro-hunting demonstrator having anti terrorism laws used against her for throwing an egg. Notice please that those who commit far worse acts (of actual terrorism) in the name of a cause many labour politicians have sympathy with (ie animal rights) have never been detained under the terrorism act.

 

ZB

 

 

Here, here!!!!!

[Mungler]

Would these I.D cards actually have to be paid for by ourselves, the honest working tax paying individuals?

 

I suppose economic migrants, asylum seekers, individuals on benefit/incapacity will be exempt from paying.................

 

Hope i haven'nt stirred up a hornets nest..............

 

 

I hope you are pulling my leg?

 

If your only concern about the proposed introduction of ID cards is their cost (and that some sections may get them for free or otherwise) and your view is representative of the UK majority, then we are all doomed....

 

No quite frankly I don't give a monkey's, you are all forgetting the point in the U.K about any decision which is made by goverment. You name one thing the masses of this country have prevented a goverment making a decision on right or wrong, whatever the political party.

 

The poll tax riots and the abolition of the poll tax. A bit of serious civil insurrection goes a long way.

 

As I have said before we moan and groan about new laws and decisions which change our way of life yet to true English tradition we accept it and carry on regardless. Thats the only thing I look at now- whats it gonna cost me- as vain as it may seem.

 

Just for the record with the continuing reference to Nazi Germany and I.D cards, you are just referencing old hat which was implied under a totally different regime. So do you think there was no I.D cards in the Soviet union under Stalin, or in Italy under Mussolini?

 

Indeed. Perfect examples of why ID cards must be resisted. There were introduced at some point and it is at that point everyone should have resisted.

 

There was a very elaborate I.D system in the soviet union which defined you as a political,religious or class threat and the penalties were just as severe for non production upon request.

 

In 1945 on May 1 alone in the soviet sector of Berlin according to Zukhov's war diaries,

 

17 soldiers (Russian)of junior rank were executed today by firing squad for 'non production of Identification when challenged'

 

They probably thought "we haven't done anything wrong and so we have nothing to worry about". Bet they were kicking themselves.

 

 

 

I am surprised.

 

We appear to be in agreement and have had a sensible discussion and debate.

 

I learnt something about Stalin's Russia and the name of the old boy at the labour party conference whose name had previously escaped me.

 

However, this thread would not be complete without some heavy drinking and some good old fashioned 4 letter sentiments about immigration

[Pushkin]

I have a friend who used to be in the Poilce until he retired. His bottom line on a lot of this stuff about ID cards is that the Police are not all that in favour of them. The everburgeoning demand for these appears to be coming from the Government itself. My take on this is as follows:-

 

There is a lack of Police available for dealing with front line duties such as day to day Policing of the streeets and they have a great deal of difficulty in doing what they used to be very good at - namely knowing and understanding just what exactly is going on at street level. When they do get the job right and make an arrest - they are then inundated with the amount of paperwork required to see this through properly - and this in turn takes them away from front line duty - hence fewer coppers on the street.

 

There are very few Chiefs of Police who would tell you they have enough coppers on the street to cope with the amount of crime that is happening there and most have asked year on year for an increase in the force strength. (I understand - but cannot qualify this fact - that Police numbers are now far lower per head of the population than they have ever been?) The Government (all breeds) know full well that this will cost them loads of moolla and even more to maintain and equip year on year. Therefore, they go for the cheaper option of CCTV and the few operators needed to monitor these - no real need for tactical uniforms and equipment - cheaper to organise and to run. The introduction of targets for detecting and processing crimes - with the implication that if you do not meet your targets then you are not doing your job and will be demoted or replaced - in other words putting the fear of God into employees to produce - often at any price.

 

My friend is very old fashioned when it comes to the Police and what they are there for. He sees it still very much that they are public servants - there to enforce the laws of the people (you and me) on behalf of the people. Now if you ask the Government, they will tell you the Police are there to carry out the wishes of the Government for the good of the people - and that gives their view a totally different twist from ours - the unwashed electorate. Where this begins to come much clearer is when you look at some of the bad law that has been brought in over the past 20 to 30 years. In many instances - knee jerk reactions by the Government to situations they were unable or unwilling to allow the Police to do their job i.e. Police the population and have insisted instead, on interfering and tinkering with the law itself.

 

I don't really care what the Government has to say about its meddling with the law - it is still just that - interference because they hope to garner more votes come election time. You only need to look at how they have made so much capital of the lesser lobbyists and smaller represented groups to understand how this works in their favour and gain them votes - take as an example the hunting ban.

 

If the Government were to invest in the Police as they should have been over the years, and provided the numbers required to actually put coppers on the beat; I doubt if we would have the current state on uncertainty that many of us now live in. But then again, if they had, we would have even more Police who were able to give voice to their unhappiness as to how succesive Governments have used the Police wrongly for Policing political and activist led campaigns i.e. the miners strike, the hunting ban the terrorism crisis et-al. From what my friend has told me, the politicians from local level and upward have a pretty poor opinion of the Police and how they should respond to any and all requests made by politicos and feel the need to "Keep them in their place" - yet their expectations of them in the public eye are often way beyond what the manpower they agree to - can cope with.

 

My own feeling is that the Government are afraid that if there were sufficient numebrs of Police on the ground, and the people of this nation were really not in favour of something they were doing to tinker with our laws - that the Police would have no option other than to enforce the law of the people for the people - in other words - go against the politicians. What a state we would be in then!

 

But in the meantime, we will continue to place cameras all over the country and use them to spot the crime or civil disobedience and then - when officers become available - we will despatch them many hours too late to deal with it - and then blame the officers for not responding quickly enough. We are the wolrds most observed (via CCTV) nation and that is not something that sits too well with me; I'd far rather there were enough Police on the streets to prevent crime than to boast about the amount of crime that had been detected by CCTV - after the crime was committed.

 

What validity is there for ID cards other than to say you are who you are? My national insurance number should be enough for them to check that - and if you are a legal citizen of this country - you will have one of these. There is no need for them to have anything else of mine such as my DNA - eye print or whatever. We do not need or want to have an Orwellian style of dictatorship operating in this country that was maybe okay in the communist led countries (even then I'm not sure) but hey - I'm forgetting - the labour party originated from the communist party many years ago: Perhaps they are simply thinking it is time to get back to their roots!

 

Pushkin