Markio Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 (edited) I realise the 'will my gun take steel' has been done to death but i'm after very specific information about the Escort gun and the steel cartridges it will actually allow. I seem to be finding contradicting information. Allow me to begin! I have an Escort pump, 3" chambers and as far as proofing goes it's the same spec as the semi auto 3" and also the double magnum 31/2" chambered guns. According to the Hatsan website these barrels are proofed at 1200 kg / cm² (17160 lb. per square inch). They also have 'STEEL SHOT' and the Fleur De Lye stamps on the barrel. So far so good. Using many on-line conversions i make this 1183 Bar. I have in my hand a Gamebore high performance steel cart #4 32grms with the warning 'use in gun proved at 1370 bar'. So looks like my gun can't take these carts. OK, but it's rated the same as the 31/2" escort (and typical wildfowlers gun) surely these owners use high performance carts. More digging, there is a guidance PDF file on the BASC website that says "....but High Performance Steel can be fired only through guns that have passed the new Steel Shot Proof (and stamped with "Steel Shot" and a Fleur de Lys to prove it)." My gun has both of these, yet the specification of my gun doesn't seem to match the carts. Then i get even more confused when i read on the same BASC document and same paragraph the mention of Bars crusher & transducer and are different Bar values!!! Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Here a download link to the document, note on page 2 section 4 for my quote above. http://www.sendspace.com/file/k51san The BASC document section 4 is confusing in the way it describes the use of steel shot in a standard shotgun 'or magnum level (i.e. 1200 bar (crusher) or 1370 bar (transducer))' My conversion nearly makes the 1200 bar (crusher) spec, are the conversion i've found crusher values and the carts spec'd up in the transducer value? I have no idea what to believe. Edited November 12, 2008 by Markio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trussman Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I'd contact Edgar Bros. and see what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Couldn't get through today, and it's doing my head in now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trussman Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Well if it's got the fleur de lye and 'steel shot' it must be safe. But your right, better to be absolutely sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I was looking at these issues the other day. What measurement system does the cartridge use? this may be the issues here as the gun is very standard in marks etc for magnum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 The cartridge was 1370 bar. But like i said, the BASC guide mentions two bar measurements (or at least i think that's what it's doing) crusher & transducer. I'm trying to find specs of other guns known to take high performance and see their spec in psi or kg/cm2 to see how they compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 The cartridge was 1370 bar. . but do Hull measure crusher or transducer ? I thought they should use CIP which presumably is crusher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 but do Hull measure crusher or transducer ? I thought they should use CIP which presumably is crusher I'm assuming transducer. So assuming that and converting my 1200 kg/cm2 proof barrels spec that is converted to 1183 Bar, so is the conversion in crusher or transducer? If that conversion is on crusher then i'm ok (I think! lol) Like i said, my next theory is to look for a metric measurement of other know good high performance steel copable guns to compare against. If anyone finds anything let me know, the Barretta site isn't helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Just got some new carts myself ... both lots rated at "for weapon proved to 1370 BAR". The shop also had my gun there and it rated at Magnum PSF double star which is 1200 Bar. It appears to be normal. So the questions is .... is a cartridge rated at 170 BAR over proof pressure safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 If you google CIP regulations it will baffle you even further. But reading the document quickly it says that the proof cartridge must generate 1370bar in order to get the high performance rating which I think is the Fleur de lys. 1200 crusher and 1370 transducer seem to be the same measurement just measured a different way. Give the proof house a ring they should be able to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted November 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 1200 crusher and 1370 transducer seem to be the same measurement just measured a different way. That seems to be the case, it's just, and excuse the pun, proving it. Taken from another BASC doc it mentions: (ie those proved to 1370 bar (transducer) or, previously, 1200 bar (crusher)). So it seem the crusher unit/value is an older unit of measurement. I can only assume the conversions i found all relate to the crusher value, and that's what started this confusion off for me in the first place. For what is worth i sat on hold with Edgar Brothers for 25 mins this morning and gave up. Screw it, my gun has STEEL SHOT and the fluer de Lys stamped on the barrel. It's rated exactly the same as the 3 1/2" chambered gun, i'm now sure it must be fine for high performance steel. Anyway, cheers for the input folks. It has been noted that MUNGSA did not intervene at any point to come to my aid, and to think i was about to make a charitable donation of £40 too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 MUNGSA seems to go very quiet when there is any real issues, Are you a member of a real organisation like BASC? I would give there firearms guys a ring and ask them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markio Posted November 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 MUNGSA seems to go very quiet when there is any real issues, Are you a member of a real organisation like BASC? I would give there firearms guys a ring and ask them. Yeah i am a member, should give that a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.