In Proof or Out of Proof

[jpw99]

I see comments regarding guns being out of proof being illegal to sell. Other than buying a brand new gun and seeing all the nice new proof marks, how does the layman know if a second hand gun is in proof or out of proof?

Also if it is illegal to sell an out of proof gun what is the legal position of the poor sod who who is not a gunsmith who is just trying to sell his gun?

Are we all supposed to send off our guns to the proof house and have them restamped before we offer them for sale or what?

Pick the bones out of these questions if you can.

 

Thanks in advance

Jim the Geordie

[jpw99]

Come on now lads i just know someone out there has the answers. If you don't know should you be pulling that trigger? I am given to understand that a gun blowing up in your face can be a tad painful.

 

Jim

[jpw99]

I suppose the non technical answer is - if is blows up in your face it's out of proof and if it does not blow up in your face it is in proof

 

Jim

[Devilishdave]

Ok the easy answer with proof marks is if you can make the proof mark out even sligtly and there is nothing else to sugest to you that the gun is potentialy dangerous then it is in proof.

 

The Point of law with selling a gun with no proof and not knowing the law is simple ignarance is no defence!

 

Dave

[jpw99]

Dave

Thanks for the input. I am not being funny but i was under the understandable impression that a gun became dangerous by being fired a lot and being worn out from the inside of the barrel. I cannot see how the mere wearing out of the external proof marks effects the safety of the gun.

 

Jim

[Devilishdave]

You are absolutely correct wearing or grinding a proof mark off will not make a gun dangerous but you will be left with a gun that has no evidence of ever having been proofed! (Back to point of law) I have seen rifles that have cycled 100K+ rounds with proof marks on the bolts that are still clear so if it as worn of chances the gun wants a good look over any way and proof should be checked.

 

Dave

[the last engineer]

The Proof and Testing of Firearms

 

Purpose and brief history

Proof is the compulsory and statutory testing of every new shotgun or other small arm before sale to ensure, so far as it is practicable, its safety in the hands of the user. Reproof is the similar testing of a small arm which has previously been proved. Both necessarily involve the firing through the barrel of a considerably heavier load than is customary in the shooting field, thereby setting up pressure and stress on barrel and action much in excess of the pressure generated by standard load cartridges. Such pressure should, and is intended to, disclose weakness in guns, whether new or used, for it is preferable that weakness be found at a Proof House rather than in the field, where personal injury may result.

 

The Law

The present law on the subject is to be found in the Gun Barrel Proof Acts 1868, 1950 and 1978 and various Rules of Proof, but particularly those of 1925, 1954, 1986 and 1989 when the metric system of measurement was introduced. Copies of the Several Acts and of Rules of Proof of 1989 may be obtained from either Proof House.

 

The Proof Acts

The provisions of the Acts apply to all small arms, whether of present use or future invention, within certain fixed limits of bore size and projectile weight (with the exception of some military arms made for the use of H.M. Forces). Air guns, are exempt from proof by Proof Act.

 

The Proof Acts lay down that no small arm may be sold, exchanged or exported, exposed or kept for sale or exchange or pawned unless and until it has been fully proved and duly marked. The Maximum penalty is £5000 for each offence, but with provision for higher penalties where, for instance, the sale of a number of guns constitutes one offence. Alteration to or the forging of proof marks is a more serious offence.

 

Arms previously proved and bearing apparently valid proof marks are deemed unproved if the barrels have been enlarged in the bore beyond certain defined limits or if the barrel or action has been materially weakend in other respects.

 

The offence in dealing in unproved arms is committed by the seller, not by an unwitting purchaser.

 

Foreign proof marks

Until June 1980, there was reciprocal agreement for recognition of certain foreign proof marks by international agreement. Since June 1980 when the United Kingdom became a member of the International Proof Commission ( the CIP), the United Kingdom has recognised all the proof marks of other member nations and reciprocally they all recognise United Kingdom marks.

 

Rules of Proof

Rules, Regulations and Scales of Proof, a schedule to the Proof Act, are the working instructions of the two Proof Houses. The rules specify the pressure to be used in proof, standards of view and the marks to be impressed on guns which pass proof, together with much detail as to bore and chamber dimensions, proof and service pressure.

 

The latest Rules of Proof, those of 1989, were approved by the Secretary of State to come into force on 1 November, 1989, but proof under earlier Rules of 1875, 1887, 1896, 1904, 1916, 1925, 1954 and 1986 remains valid provided that the barrel or action has not been materially weakened or altered so that it no longer conforms with the proof marks.

 

Submission to proof

Any individual may submit arms for proof or reproof direct to either of the Proof Houses, but it is more usual and generally more satisfactory for all concerned that arms be submitted through a gunmaker.

 

Primarily this is because the majority of old guns require attention prior to proof. Proof regulations require that shotgun barrels shall be “struck-up” and smooth and that insides shall be clean. Pitting should be removed so far as is practicable, bulges knocked down and dents raised. Actions should be in good, safe working order and tight on the face to resist the increased strain of proof pressure. Since stocks, and particularly those with unusual “bend” or “cast”, are not designed to withstand the heavy recoil of proof, it is customary for the wood to be removed. Indeed, the Proof House do not accept responsability for damage to stocks resulting from proof.

 

It will be apparent that to fulfill these requirements the preparation necessary will best be undertaken by a gunmaker who is accustomed to submitting to proof.

 

Rejection

In the event of a proof reject, or failure to withstand the proof test, guns may be repaired if possible and resubmitted. On final rejection, that is when the submitter accepts that further attempts at repair are unlikely to succeed, the existing proof marks upon the barrels and/or action will be defaced or barred out. It is unlawful for a weapon to be sold with defaced proof marks, except where later reproof marks have been impressed. It is recommended that such a gun be deactivated, to ensure that it can never be used by some person unaware of its unproved condition.

 

 

tis as simple as that hope it explains it enough

 

Martin

[the last engineer]

sorry forgot a bit :*)

 

 

Proof Testing of Ammunition and Explosive Powders for the Trade and Home Loader.

 

Under the rules imposed on Proof Houses in Europe and other countries, set by our governing body, the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP).

 

Headquarters in Liege, Belgium - cartridge manufacturers are required to provide samples of their products to be subjected to test by the Proof House and, if satisfactory, may carry the Proof House and CIP mark (see right).

 

Although the same rules do not apply to home loaders, given that their products cannot be legally sold, in the interests of safety the Proof House affords those parties opportunity to batch test their ammunition to ensure that the associated breech pressures and velocities are within acceptable standards. By so doing it removes the potential for weapons being damaged, thereby injuring the user or, even worse, innocent bystanders. Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition.

 

Similar tests can be made on various powder batches or powder types.

 

The ammunition is tested in the Proof House Laboratory using modern test guns which are linked to a computer to provide graphical presentations.

[Cranfield]

My general rules of thumb when checking out an obviously old gun are;

 

Check out the proof marks.

 

Look at the thickness of the end of the barrels, thin barrels, or irregular wear is a warning.

 

Any distortion of the line of the barrels.

I looked at an old Spanish 12 bore years ago, that had slight "ballooning" about 4 inches from the end of the chamber.

 

Badly pitted barrels, don't forget to look down the barrels from both ends.

 

The tightness of the general action, if it is loose that can suggest the gun has seen plenty of action.

 

Any of the above symptoms and a trip to the Gunsmith is recommended.

[Hodmedod.one]

Take the Gun to a good Gunsmith who will be able to check the internal diameter of the barrels. The proof marks on an English gun should give the barrel ID's at the time of proofing. He will subtract this figure from the measurement he has just taken and can then tell you the amount of wear that the gun has had since it was proofed.

I recently bought a circa 1880 Damascus Barrelled Williams & Powell Hammergun that I had checked by this method.

[jpw99]

last engineer - you have private mail or you had it and have read it.

 

Jim

[jpw99]

Thank you for the input gents, i am now much wiser. Weighing up the pros and cons and until i am more experienced at fault recognition i will will use the following rules for safety as i am an old guy and i would like to become an even older old guy -

1. Buy from a gunsmith.

2. Sell to a gunsmith.

3. Take my gun or guns for a regular "M.O.T".

 

Now some would say "oh no but what about the cost man?"

My reply would be - What value would you put on your life? Is your life not worth the price of an "M.O.T"?

 

Give instruction to a wise man and he will be yet wiser.

 

Jim

[Browning GTS]

Jim try this link http://www.gunproof.co.uk/

 

 

 

 

Keith

[The_Craws]

Thank you for the input gents, i am now much wiser. Weighing up the pros and cons and until i am more experienced at fault recognition i will will use the following rules for safety as i am an old guy and i would like to become an even older old guy -

1. Buy from a gunsmith.

2. Sell to a gunsmith.

3. Take my gun or guns for a regular "M.O.T".

 

Now some would say "oh no but what about the cost man?"

My reply would be - What value would you put on your life? Is your life not worth the price of an "M.O.T"?

 

Give instruction to a wise man and he will be yet wiser.

 

Jim

I think thats abit extreme. If someone is selling privately a gun that obviously hasnt been fired many times then there is no danger surely.

[Snotty]

There are 3 kinds of gun that blow up in your face.

 

Most popular is the 12 gauge with two cartridges loaded one behind the other. Proof won't save you, generally considered a bad idea to mix different bore cartridges in your pocket.

 

Next is the old double barrel that has rotted out under the rib. These tend to burst upwards and outwards and are unlikely to kill you.

 

Third is the old blackpowder gun loaded with smokeless because there wasn't any blackpowder to hand. This usually only kills Americans and everyone swears blind it WAS blackpowder after the event, especially if there is a chance of litigation.

 

Can't think of anything else you have to worry about. I regularly shoot smokeless shells in black powder proof guns, they are almost invariably chambered 2" so I'm not loading anything hot.

 

A gun doesn't have to be in proof before you can use it.

 

best regards

 

Snotty

[Devilishdave]

It as to be in proof to sell on though.

 

Dave

[Snotty]

...not necessarily

 

I shoot antiques and before you sell you revert it to curiosity or ornament to get it off your SGC/FAC, that way you can post it royal mail and no proof marks required.

 

best regards

 

Snotty

[Devilishdave]

I asume never to be fired again! Or that would strike me as a dubious practice at best, criminal at worst.

[Snotty]

I asume never to be fired again! Or that would strike me as a dubious practice at best, criminal at worst.

Uh?

 

That's the way it's always done

 

Perfectly legal

 

Why would I want the proof house smacking modern stamps on to an antique worth thousands of pounds?

 

Stuff that for a kettle of monkeys