Guest cookoff013 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Subs i`ve often been asked what makes a good sub sonic cartridge, That is a very good question. simply, for every good cartridge good pressure is needed, and good velosity, but with subsonic ammunition high pressure and slow velosity are very hard to match. so i`m going to give you a few tips. subs need pressure to burn the powder efficently enough. if it didnt there would be erratic ballistics, and would produce a dangerous load. high pressure is obtained by these simple steps. increase the payload and / or increase the powder charge. thats just a general rule. but stick to published data. 12gauge faster burning powders are a must. infact the fastest, for the lighter payloads (1oz, 1,1/8oz). these powders are hodgdon titewad, bullseye, N310. these give good high pressure required for good burn and down loaded for safe pressure. optimal payload for these are 1oz and 1,1/8oz. so these are hunting cartridges, bird cartridges, game cartridges. on the benefit side they have low recoil, pattern great, have a lower range though. payload, i know what you guys are thinking, regardless of whatever is going to be shot at the english 6 is it, 7, 8, etc. well, as the shot only goes 1050fps (ish) it lacks in energy. speed is the energy. normal cartridges, go 1300fps, so its already down 1/3 on power. to compensate this i`d up the shotsize to a 4. for ground game. the #6 isnt the most wonderfull shotsize in the world. its just good, as a bird load. for the larger (1,3/8oz +) cartridges, the rules change. different powders are used. fibre wads are great through moderated guns, plastic can cause some issues, with fowling. i dont have a moderated gun, but do sort out a cartridge now and again for friends. (giving them advice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliengravy Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is Very interesting! I am just starting to load subsonics myself. I have one recipe. Could you send me your recipes? Do you have any using fibre wads, winchester 209 primers? And any of the alliant powders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 the recipe i`m looking at is 12gauge fio 616 /cx2000 / fed209a primers (hot type) 15-16 (fifteen to sixteen grains) of hodgdon titewad. wad 1,1/8oz lead, (32grams) the 16 may be alittle quick. the powder for this is absolutely wonderful. i`ve been looking into this more and more. it is faster than vectan AS. so will burn at lower pressure (ie cleaner). it will burn at 5-6000psi. i got some just to try out lead shotshell loading, but happens to be a great fun load, the only downside, is the powder is American and is more expensive than noble powders. but it is the cheapest american powder. however it makes up for the fact that only 15-16 grains is used in this load. the powder really doesnt like conventional 1,1/8oz loads. it is more for 1oz or less. a conventional load being (1300fps) it can have the charge increased a grain, but the speed doesnt go up much. the powder is stressed at this point, it just raises the pressure more than speed. so if you are in need of subsonic cartridges, you may think about reloading them. (if you dont already). i`ve just looked at some prices on a website, you know, the one where they sell just cartridges. subs in #8 £200 / k. but only 1oz.another £260/k. these prices are a rip off, because the production runs are so small. as a hunting cartridge, #4 will be fine, i`m sure of that. i dont really care whats shot at clays. i just wanted the guys who have a very select criteria,or who enjoy subs, use a moderator, not to get ripped off. i do think in the end you will have a better cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) the recipe i`m looking at is 12gauge fio 616 /cx2000 / fed209a primers (hot type) 15-16 (fifteen to sixteen grains) of hodgdon titewad. wad 1,1/8oz lead, (32grams) the 16 may be alittle quick. the powder for this is absolutely wonderful. i`ve been looking into this more and more. it is faster than vectan AS. so will burn at lower pressure (ie cleaner). it will burn at 5-6000psi. i got some just to try out lead shotshell loading, but happens to be a great fun load, the only downside, is the powder is American and is more expensive than noble powders. but it is the cheapest american powder. however it makes up for the fact that only 15-16 grains is used in this load. the powder really doesnt like conventional 1,1/8oz loads. it is more for 1oz or less. a conventional load being (1300fps) it can have the charge increased a grain, but the speed doesnt go up much. the powder is stressed at this point, it just raises the pressure more than speed. so if you are in need of subsonic cartridges, you may think about reloading them. (if you dont already). i`ve just looked at some prices on a website, you know, the one where they sell just cartridges. subs in #8 £200 / k. but only 1oz.another £260/k. these prices are a rip off, because the production runs are so small. as a hunting cartridge, #4 will be fine, i`m sure of that. i dont really care whats shot at clays. i just wanted the guys who have a very select criteria,or who enjoy subs, use a moderator, not to get ripped off. i do think in the end you will have a better cartridge. I have a recipe that states 15grains of AS for a velocity of 1040 in a 12guage 28gram fibre load but I recall trying it once and the actual velocity was lower so maybe an extra grain or so... A1 yields about the same results in 20gauge with a 15mm fibre and nitro card in a 65mm case and 28 grams of shot Edited January 16, 2011 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 A quick question on this topic out of interest, how much does using subsonic ammo in moderated shotguns limit your killing range as I'm sure it must have an affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliengravy Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 I have a recipe that states 15grains of AS for a velocity of 1040 in a 12guage 28gram fibre load but I recall trying it once and the actual velocity was lower so maybe an extra grain or so... A1 yields about the same results in 20gauge with a 15mm fibre and nitro card in a 65mm case and 28 grams of shot I cant find any recipes that use AS with a higher grain load in them (and still using fibre). Do you think it would be safe to add that extra grain or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) I cant find any recipes that use AS with a higher grain load in them (and still using fibre). Do you think it would be safe to add that extra grain or so? The standard velocity 28gram load in AS for 12g fibre is 22.5grains with a CX2000 primer so you are waaaaaay in What recipes do you have for AS that aren't higher than 15grains Remember that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY and should try and verify any recipes given out over the 'net Edited January 16, 2011 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 A quick question on this topic out of interest, how much does using subsonic ammo in moderated shotguns limit your killing range as I'm sure it must have an affect. Moderated guns usually have quite tight chokes so I run my subsonics at just under the speed of sound 1100 fps and use a size 6 pellet. I can't see any difference in hitting power at normal ranges, say 35-40yards I smoked a couple of beauties on friday night that were coming to land in the tops of some very high trees. The base of the trees must have been getting on for 30yards from me and it stopped them dead in the air with 28 grams of 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 16, 2011 Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 yes, please verify any data on here, i "personally" think AS burns alright, but not as well as titewad. titewad burns clean, even at low pressures. its in the same league as bullseye, etc. all of these powders are limp when 32g of shot is used. giving low velosities, and usually higher pressures. i dont think, AS is as good in this application. i`m not saying it cant be used. but there is better out there. i have the exact AS recipe, for subsonic load. i think AS could push 32grams, sub-sonic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 the reason titewad is selected is because the actual range that it operates. i had data for a 1,1/8oz (32g)load the charge was 18 grains,and the pressure 11,000psi. the velosity is 1100. that really is on the "published" usable limit, of pressure, for not alot of speed. this is exactly the best type of recipe for subs, high pressure and poor speed. the powder charge is large enough to knock off 10% (2 grains) (alittle bit more for 1000fps). that 2 grain drop is enough to knock of 100fps and alittle pressure. the consistancy is there because the pressure is high. twitch inconsistency happens less than 5000psi. the shot charge most certainly helps with that. deducting 2-3 grains from this recipe, is better than deducting 7-8grains from the AS recipe. (22-23grains AS in 1oz load) not only that, there are lots of recipes for titewad. have fun y`all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) MC that 32g load is ideal for subsonics. CX2000 primer, 21 grains of Vectan AS, B & P Z18 plastic wad, 32gr of shot, 6 point crimp gives 1119 fps just drop 2-3 grains of powder, #4 shot, and you have a wicked sub load. as you have taken away alittle powder. the pressure will never be as high as 610bar and it may still burn clean ! i think this looks better than the 28g sub load. Edited May 13, 2011 by cookoff013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 So after using subsonic .22 rounds, I'm interested in creating my own 12g versions for vermin control and just for fun and experimentation if that's still allowed! I just bought a job lot of Loading stuff at a carboot sale for £30 A lee Load All in good order with all the parts. a full tub of Shotwell 2% antimony hardened Leadshot no 5 two tubs of powder; Herco Smokeless and a French brand Vectan AS and finally a few hundred primers. I just need to get some wads and some used cases. I live fairly near Henry Kranks so I might get some from there. So burn rate is a factor? Googling reveals the Vectan is a "very fast powder" and the Herco is for heavy loads. I'm not sure what the the primers are.... So Cookoff013's 32g load might be worth trying? Whats the worst that could happen (gulp). Is realoading your own any cheaper when buying ordinary loads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 that vectan AS should be your first candidate for subsonics. the titewad is great stuff, just alittle too expensive. saving money is not my first criteria, i just reload exotic cartridges. try 17-18 grains of AS, with 32g lead. the problem with subs is clean burn and pressure regulation (same thing really), and speed control / variation. in shell ballistics, to get good consitancy with all aspects is consistant pressure, after that speed and variation should settle, and not vary too much between shot to shot. burn rate is a major factor with all relaoding. also how the powder is used, in varying amounts. reloading is not cost effective, as you end up spending more. but the availability of your special loads are just up to you. as far as i`m aware, there are no 32g subsonics available. i`ve used them a few times and one thing always amazes me is the lack of recoil. no noise.... ps, check your barrel before and after firing. i dont know if these loads operate an auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabbers Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 Tested 25 of Cookoff013's recipe at the clayground today in my Nikko O/U and hit just as many birds with them as I did with the box of Eley Olympic which I purchased there. What really impressed me was the lack of recoil which brought me back on target quicker on fast pairs. There was a huge reduction in recoil on the home loads! I'm stuck with fibre wads and to fill the 70mm casings, I've uses a thick cardboard wad, a 20mm fibre wad and then another thick card wad, it seems a bit wasteful of wadding, but works well on my Lee Load All 1. I don't own a hushpower weapon, I was hoping to emulate the quietness of a .22 subsonic round, but these still make a fair crack! Anybody got any other interesting recipes or links to sites that do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Tested 25 of Cookoff013's recipe at the clayground today in my Nikko O/U and hit just as many birds with them as I did with the box of Eley Olympic which I purchased there. What really impressed me was the lack of recoil which brought me back on target quicker on fast pairs. There was a huge reduction in recoil on the home loads! I'm stuck with fibre wads and to fill the 70mm casings, I've uses a thick cardboard wad, a 20mm fibre wad and then another thick card wad, it seems a bit wasteful of wadding, but works well on my Lee Load All 1. I don't own a hushpower weapon, I was hoping to emulate the quietness of a .22 subsonic round, but these still make a fair crack! Anybody got any other interesting recipes or links to sites that do? lack of recoil is good, but they still should give a muzzel report. they should be less loud, not quiet. i think you will be disapointed if you try and emulate the quietness of a subsonic .22, with a unmoderated 12gauge. i`m still right in the fact a child could shoot these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.