1066
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Posts posted by 1066
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Quite agree Vince - Both the Minimags and Blazers have a bit more poke than the usual subsonic target ammunition like Eley Club, Sport etc. and certainly a fair bit more that subsonic HP ammunition.
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I like the tinkering etc side of things. To make a gun work well from not so well is something that very much appeals to me.
The things I've built / tweaked etc that go on to be a great bits of kit are great.
OK then, this is a all fascinating, to advance it somewhat,
The same rifle, barrel, shooter, ammo, conditions etc. Shots taken at a steady relaxed pace.....
What, in people's opinions is the more accurate etc and why??
I'm also a maker/tweaker/tinkerer
What are you asking? What is more accurate a bolt or a semi and why?
You normally need to do a lot of work to a semi-auto .22 to get it to approach the accuracy of a good bolt rifle.
Just assuming you had the same good quality barrel with the same accuracy potential.
The bolt rifle will often have, or at least could have, a match, semi-match or tighter chamber - semi-autos are often chambered slack to aid feeding and extraction.
The bolt rifle will more often have a far better trigger - The semi-auto MUST not go full auto, it must catch and hold the sear as the block is blown back.
A good fitting bolt action (or Martini type single shot) fully supports the cartridge head with almost zero headspace. A semi-auto blow back bolt is loose by design.
A semi-auto will often have a ramp cut into the chamber to aid feeding leaving a small part of the case unsupported when firing.
A semi-auto will often scrape the bullet as is strips it off the magazine and slams it into the breech.
With a bolt action you can choose the most accurate ammunition for the rifle - with a semi-auto it's no good having an extremely accurate round that won't cycle the action.
That's just a few things to consider for a start.
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Something else concerning semi-autos thats not always obvious and was highlighted at the range last week. We had two guys sharing a tatical looking rifle, maybe a S&W 15/22? One chap had no jproblems at all, the other, almost every other shot was a feed failure. The second chap was quite tall and the stock was far too short for him, it was hardly touching his shoulder. We lengthened the stock and he had no more trouble.
And another thought - back in the olden days, .22 pistols were reliable - They used the same straight blowback action, almost always used subsonic ammunition and cycled perfectly. My thought on this are that is was easier to slip the slide off a pistol and give it a brush out, you could easily see if it was full of crud.
Almost all of the available .22 semi-auto rifles are set up for standard velocity .22 ammunition (1070- 1150ish) Here, in the UK, many semi-autos are used with sub-sonic rounds 1020-1060ish) with a moderator. A lighter recoil spring would ensure better reliability.
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Or alternatively one can buy a gun that feeds well.
Couldn't agree more
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Must be something to do with how they're shipped out from the factory. Not sure how anyone can correctly maintain or set up a magazine ?! They have a slot into which you push it until it clicks. They're just not good guns out of the box (some might be but there are always exceptions) that's why there is a huge mini industry of supplying replacement factory parts. I can't think of any other gun that's catered for in quite the same way.
I'm not a 10/22 fan either, however a lot are used in club level gallery rifle competitions where reliability really comes ahead of accuracy - it's no good getting 8 perfect 10's then a jam in a timed shoot. For reliability, the mag needs to be cleaned and maintained with the correct spring preload tension.
Here a post grabbed from another forum on how to do it.
Servicing Ruger 10/22 Magazines
10/22 commonly encounter feeding problems due to accumulating fouling, deposits from waxed bullets, internal component wear, and/or improper factory assembly. I find they commonly develop sufficient interior fouling to start misfeeding after a few hundred rounds with wax-lubricated slugs and internal plastic-on-plastic wear (which looks much like galling). The Ruger 10/22 manual does not recommend disassembly, but does provide a magazine assembly illustration on p. 17. The seven parts (with Ruger nomenclature and my description / simplified terms) are:
Magazine Shell -- the plastic body of the magazine
Magazine Cap -- the plastic rear end panel you remove to open/disassemble the magazine
Magazine Throat -- the metal feed lips which hold the cartridge to be fed into the chamber
Magazine Rotor -- the plastic cartridge feed mechanism which rotates each cartridge into place for feeding
Magazine Rotor Spring -- the metal spring which provides the tension to rotate the rotor
Screw -- the metal ( 9/64" socket head cap) screw which holds the magazine together
Cap Nut -- the hexagonal-head nut which fits into a hexagonal recess on the magazine cap (which closes the rear of
the magazine) and the mates with the screw to hold the magazine together. It also retains the end of the spring. The cap nut can be rotated (once you learn the trick of backing off the screw) to adjust the spring tension on the rotor.
The magazine can be serviced (and improved) as follows:
1. Start by clearing the magazine of any cartridges. Jammed cartridges can usually be persuaded to feed with something similar to a matchstick or swizzle stick (something that will not mar the interior), and they can then be pushed forward out of the magazine lips.
2. Study the assembly so you know what is in the front and rear, and how the feed lips ("magazine throat") should look when properly assembled. It is strongly recommended you keep the 10/22 manual illustration of magazine assembly on p. 17, and/or a spare, factory-assembled magazine on hand for comparison during reassembly.
3. I use "Liquid Paper" (or other convenient source of fast-drying white paint), to put a small dot on the hexagonal spring retaining cap on the rear of the magazine at a spot showing its alignment to the hole used to align the metal feed lips ("magazine throat") with the hole on the rear panel ("magazine cap") on the plastic magazine shell. If you confuse easily, you could also put alignment marks on the points where the feed lips have a small boss or stud which aligns with holes in the front and rear of the magazine near the feed slot, but this should not be necessary.
4. Begin disassembly by backing out the socket head cap screw at the front using a 9/64" Allen wrench. It is usually in pretty tight, so you need to hold the mag firmly, possibly with gloves or a towel to protect your hand. When it has been loosened [about 2 turns -- almost out], push the screw back SLOWLY, to push out the six-sided cap nut on the other side of the mag. This is going to want to get away from you and spin around real fast to release spring tension, but if you grab it carefully with fingers or a wrench, you can count the number of turns it takes to relax the spring preload. The manual says 1-1/4 turns (this is impossible with a six-sided nut, so 1-1/3 is more realistic, but this feature allows some "tuning" of spring tension by the owner). Keep your finger on this piece to prevent loss.
5. Move the cap nut slightly back from its seat, carefully noting how the end of the spring fits into a tiny hole in the cap nut -- you will need to replace the spring into this hole upon reassembly. Set the cap nut aside in a safe place.
6. Remove the magazine end-cap -- the back-side of the magazine -- and set aside.
7. Pull out the magazine rotor, keeping track of how it is positioned so you can put it back later. Notice how the one long vane on the rotor is pressed up against the cartridge feed lips by spring tension. This is critical to reassembly. Remove the rotor spindle. Note where the rotor (and cartridges) produces wear marks on the inside of the magazine body. If you are using waz-lubricated cartridges, these wear marks will be coated with wax, which can be gently scraped off with a fingernail or some non-marring piece of wood or plastic.
8. Slide the cartridge feed lips out of the magazine shell. Note the larger locating stud engaging a partially obscured alignment hole at the front of the magazine shell and the smaller stud engaging an alignment hole at the rear of the magazine shell. Note the different shape of the feed lips front and back, and the different cut-out on the inside, and how it fits into the shell at an unusual angle. Set the feel lips aside for cleanup.
9. Clean up everything with your preferred cleaner (I use SimpleGreen and alcohol, but Hoppes and other solvents also work well, as long as you leave things clean). Dry everything off. You may coat the spring with a very light coat of oil if you wish, but keep oil off everything else. Oil in the mag itself just gathers dust and fouling.
10. Notice the wear pattern on the inside of the magazine shell. I find wax from bullet heads which needs to be scraped out, and plastic-on-plastic wear on the inside. I found the buffing wheel supplied with my Dremel tool to be a prefect fit to the inside of the magazine shell, and (using the mild red rouge abrasive supplied with the accessory kit) buffed the inside of the magazine with light, smooth, gentle strokes until it was a lot slicker than new. Do not press down too long or too hard, as heating up the plastic excessively could ruin the magazine. This polishing should give the wax and fouling less opportunity to collect. I also gently polished the long vane on the rotor, which was rubbing and galling the inside of the mag shells, the most likely cause of the jamming. When you are done, you will have to thoroughly clean out all residue from the rouge abrasive, so a second cleaning is in order. I finish up by doing a wipedown using a cloth dampened with alcohol.
11. Clean and inspect the feed lips for residue and sharp spots which could cause feed problems. Replace the cartridge feed lips back into the top of the mag shell. The feed lips fit into the magazine shell tilted to the right, with the large stud or boss fitting the alignment hole in the front of the mag shell and the more open end of the slot (with the rounded feed lip ramp) opening toward the forward portion of the mag shell.
12. If you completely removed the spring, make sure that the end of the spring with the right angle bend engages the hole in the rotor. The spring is the only thing I would consider lubricating in the magazine, but it really doesn't seem to need it. You should have no oil in the rest of the mag, as it will only collect grit and fouling.
13. Reinstall the rotor spindle and rotor/spring into the mag shell, with the more open end of the vanes forward and exposed spring facing to the rear. Remember how one of the vanes on the rotor is longer than the others? Make sure this vane will be held against the cartridge feed lips (by spring tension, once applied), and the ends of the rotor engage the shoulders at the front and back end of the magazine shell.
14. Put the rear end shell cap in place, verifying that the rotor spring sticks out through the hole in the center and that the small alignment stud on the cartridge feed lips engages the hole in the shell cap. Hold the rear end shell cap tight to the mag shell during reassembly.
15. Engage the protruding end of the rotor spring in the small hole in the shoulder of the spring retaining cap. Verify the full length of the spring beyond the bend enters the hole. It usually goes right in if aligned properly, but is a bit like threading a needle, but you cannot see the hole while you do this, so you need to know where it is. You can support the end of the spring (with a small screwdriver or needle nose pliers) when engaging the spring end in the cap hole, but this should not be necessary, but it takes a bit of fiddling to get it in.
16. Thread the screw through the front of the mag shell and rotor and start the screw into the cap nut about 1/2 turn (no more).
17. You need to tension the spring by winding the spring retaining cap in a clockwise direction. Start by taking up the excess slack in the spring (the long rotor vane should be pressed against the cartridge feed lips, visible through the feed lips slot). Note the spring retaining cap has six flat sides on it. Align the paint mark you made so you know how much preload you are using (this can be adjusted, if required). With all spring slack removed, turn the cap one full turn, and press it into place to hold it from springing back. The retaining screw tightens as you preload the spring, so it may not go a full turn if you have it too tight, but you can move it incrementally if you watch the alignment mark.)
18. Now BACK OFF the screw one full turn. Then, very carefully press the retaining screw so the six-sided spring retaining cap moves out enough to grab it. (You can use a wrench, or do this with strong fingernails.) Do not push it clear of the recess in the end cap until you have it under control, or the spring will cause it to unwind rapidly. Now add a second full turn of tension, then press the six-sided spring retaining cap carefully into its restrained "home" position in the end cap. You can now fully tighten the screw.
19. Check the follower tension: it should be sufficient to snap smartly back when you depress the follower with a drift or screwdriver. You can also compare tension to the still-assembled comparison magazine. If it is not correct, you can loosen the screw and re-tension it again. The 10/22 manual says 1-1/4 turns (impossible with a six-sided nut), Gunsmoke Engineering's post indicated tightening by 4 flats to get proper tension, while my experience is 1-1/2 to 2 complete turns, or 9 - 12 flats beyond the spring rest position (but I fire at a range which only allows five rounds loaded, so I almost never load 10 rounds). You can adjust to what works best for you.
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I've got an old Voere semi-auto - I've had it 40 years, it's accurate and never misses a beat - You can lock the breech and use it as a bolt action if you prefer.
Most problems with the 10/22 is down to poorly maintained and set up magazines.
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Certainly interesting - some of these old mechanisms were ingenious, especially considering the tools available at the time.
Here's a little side opening breech loader I made many years ago - It's a loose copy of a Colt No 3. HERE
and just to show there's still some life in those old ideas.
Here's a "Harmonica gun" designed by J. Browning (father of J. M. Browning) in the early 1800's HERE
and here's my 5 shot muzzle loading target pistol that works exactly the same.
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There was a cracking little BSA Century going for a song (£110) over on another site HERE These are basically 5 shot bolt action target rifles and don't come up for sale very often.
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I have a 527 in .223 Varmint. - Fairly accurate and has the set trigger. Just be aware that the scope dovetail is an odd size.
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If you find a cheap Martini Int - don't be shy of chopping the stock about. You can cut bits off and add bits on to your hearts content without breaking the bank.
I know of chaps who have bought up old BSA Martinis just for the barrel - chop it off and dump the rest - sacrilege really. I've just paid £600 for a .22lr Lilja barrel so I see why it makes sense.
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A very sad day. I handed in my .32 Pardini, .38 S&W 14 masterpiece, .380 Webley, .22LR Britarms 2000, .22lr Drulov, 9mm Star B :(
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I agree with Vince - If you want to play the prone target shooting game, even at basic club level, then you need a dedicated target rifle. No sporting bolt action will compete with a 50 year old Martini International or old Anschutz 54.
Don't forget also that the rifle will need to comply with certain rules if you intend to shoot in any competitions, maximum weight, trigger weight etc.
A good BSA Martini International complete with the correct Diopter sights, sling and shooting jacket (and probably a spotting scope too) will all be well within your budget. It will last a lifetime and will continue to increase in value - 10 years ago you could pick up a really good one for £100 now they are getting harder to find.
Others you might think about are the Russian CM2, the Finnish Lion, Walther, Winchester 52, Unique, Remington 37 etc.
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I've had good service from East Sussex for the last couple of years now, variations in a couple of weeks - before that not so hot.
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Aldi do one on offer now and again: I bought one three or four years ago and it's still working well. The one I have has an A/V take-off so could plug it into my old Sony camcorder.
I've also mounted it on a rifle and works well.
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Thats an excellent job, and obviously a lot of work. Currently I use "On Target" which does a similar job but would like to try your system when it's available.
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I would try Spud - seems to have good reputation for all things reloading.
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I seem to recall the the Webley Garden Gun was 9mm or was I off my head with Tizer?
??Yes, Webley along with many others made a 9mm garden gun, often called a No 3. This was a 9mm rimfire cartridge with a thimble full of about 10 shot.
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Not sure but would make sense based on bigger bore size hense bigger alowed pellet size.
Im talking oldish legislation here,m if things have changed in the recent legislation im not sure.
.A shotgun cartridge is defined as "cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter" . .360 inch corresponds to US size 000 buckshot, or 9.14 mm in diameter, LG size buckshot in the UK. a loading of 12 LG shot in a 7.6 cm cartridge case is a standard US 12 bore loading.
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Thats LG 0.360 Inches I think you can have bigger but not in a 12ga i forget how its worded now its relative to the bore size IIRC.
I thought a shotgun cartridge needed to have at least 6 pellets for SGC.
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When you hold the gun the barrel is free floating when it's on a bipod (it has been every time we have shot it)
The stock touches the barrel.
That seems to me like it's bound to affect accuracy?
Well that's the place to start. I would also start with a proper clean, not just a quick pull with a snake, remove the mod altogether until you find the problem.
Start with some fair quality ammunition and shoot a string of fouling/conditioning shots before shooting some serious groups.
Keep the targets and note ammunition, range, conditions etc.
Yes, golfball sized groups at 50 yards should be quite possible with that set-up.
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Ive never seen any in this country or I would have tried it but understand they need a barrel with a tighttwist to be accurate
And there's the rub - I think you would be hard pushed to find any .22lr barrel here that wasn't 1-16.
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You can start with as little as the Lee Loader, next step up is the Lee Anniversary Kit. A set of Hornady dies and a few other bits. A tub of N130.. Some CCI primers and you're good to go.
That's it Mick - dangle the bait, just a Lee Loader for £30 and away you go. You know full well that six months down the line his credit card will be maxed out and he'll have at least two presses, scales, trimmers, tumblers, measures etc. just like the rest of us.
I bought my first Lee loader in 1973
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Totally agree with that English.
Here's an interesting video of how CCI rimfire ammunition is made. The ingots and billets of lead will make your eyes water:
https://www.full30.com/video/51e453e71ecdab4ac27cd3a3400a403e
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That's interesting. I have been looking at the Westlake engineering revolvers. This is another option.
Alan does a good job on his nitro revolver conversion and they do actually shoot very well. Being a keen UIT shooter in the past I quite fancy a trip down memory lane. I've been looking for one of the .32 Zylab patriot target pistols for a year or two and just recently found one in excellent condition - the variation is in and my FEO is coming for coffee and biscuits next Wednesday.
In the pistols days I used a S&W .38 Spec Mod 14 (Target) with Bowler grips but, although it was a quality pistol, it just couldn't compete with the pukka .32 target pistols like the Walther, FAS etc. so I bought a .32 Pardini. - My .22 competition pistol was a Britarms 2000 (made by Alan Westlake)
.22 semi question??
in Guns & Equipment
Posted
Years ago I had a very nice Browning Match 150 UIT Target pistol, just recently I had a go with a Buckmark, loading the magazines was like visiting an old friend.