BOLTA

Hi, I do not believe I heard right in this matter, did I ? You are suggesting only to train one particular muscle group and forget about the other muscle groups in your whole body. This will for sure lead to unbalance in the body structure and not given your more overall strength or power. Actually, you can weaken this muscle group if you train it too hard. To get a stronger body you most train the whole body involving as many muscle groups as you can. Of course if your reach a certain level of strongness or want to develop a certain muscle group you may have to change your strategy in this process. Training the whole body will give you more strength and support that special muscle group you want to enlarge. Besides, training only one muscle group do not in any way give you more staying power nor does it give more lung capacity or help the blood circulation. Nor would you gain any form for speed through the whole body if you only train one muscle group - people lifting weights have much faster reaction time than those who do not train with weights. This also incl. the biggest bodybuilders, they are in no way slower in reaction time than a normal man. There is no shortcuts in getting stronger you must train hard and stay in that pace in a long time before you muscles startes to develop and you get stronger. Someone mentioned a month here, this chap does obviously not know anything about bodybuilding or getting stronger by lifting weights. This takes SEVERAL month, perhaps you will gain some strength in a period over 6 month but first after one year of full intensive training you will see some good results. Of course this is without any form for doping. I have trained weight lifting for several years now. This is only hometraining and right now I am taking a break. In that time my body have got stronger and more developed but as soon as you stop training you will start to loose some of the strength you have build up - just some few month will make a big difference in strength capacity. So you have to train regulary if you want to stay in top shape and not loosing power. Another thing about training the whole body. Many of us Europeans do actually have a great strength in our upper bodies but not much in the legs. So we must actually pay more attension to the training of the lower part of the body than to the upper part if we want equal strength in both upper and lower parts of the body. Those people who live and walk much in the mountains have it reversed. They have much stronger legs than upper bodies so they have to pay attension to their upper bodies to get equal strength. Cheers - Bolta

Hi, The best camo tape on the market is CamoClad. This stuff won´t hold any damp like the No-Mar tape which actually consists of cloth. It also can be easy applied and taken off again without damage the surface of a gun and no glue is remaining on the gun what so ever afterward. If you do not start diving with your gun the CamoClad will offer you a nearly perfect seal against the weather. Rain will just run off the tape if the tape is applied correctly.

Hi, You are wrong about this ! If I shoot a more heavier weight pellet I do not get any cleaner kills than if I shoot a lower weighted pellet. Actually, you get more nerve reaction from a quarry, a least I do, then I shoot a heavier pellet with less "lethal design" comparing to more "lethal design" pellet. How do you explain this ? Yeah, lets us now see. Well, I probably have to agree with you, Bolta because the heavier weight pellet did not create a larger wound channel through the killzone so therefor it did not kill as clean as an expanding pellet would do no matter what the weight was. I guess from all of this that you have never tried shooting a high power FAC gun or actually seen what such a gun can do to a quarry, right ? If you really did have shot a FAC one you will be in NO DOUBT about that the weight of particular pellet does not have much to say about killing power what so ever. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Wrong, if I understand you correctly ! A heavier weight pellet can not kill any cleaner than a light weight pellet if you have enough energy to drive the particular pellet into the vital killzones. It is not the weight of a pellet that kills a quarry but it is the destruction of vital tissue and organs that kills a quarry. What any hunter is after in clean killing is a large wound channel right through the killzone of a quarry. The longer and wider this wound channel is the faster or cleaner the kill will be. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Rubbish, a least the statement about .25 at FAC power levels ! You can have just as flat trajectory with FAC .25 if you match the pellet weight correctly to the power of the gun as you will get with any of the other 3 smaller caliber. This is all it takes ! Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Yes, you will have both increased range and a rather flat pellet trajectory if you like. But you will also have a choice that say you can make heart/lung shots on for example woodies with FAC airrifles. Plus FAC rifles also normally mean that you have higher kill power behind a shot simply because you can make pellets expand more upon impact and rip more vital tissue over in a quarry than you will ever be able to do with sub 12 ft/lbs airguns. This fact is very often overlooked then people are talking FAC airguns ! Cheers - Bolta

Hi, Complicated ? Perhaps, a little but nothing to worry about. Now, I will tell you the 3 most important things in killing quarry and these are quite simple. These 3 things are "Shot placement", "Enough energy to penetrate and reaching the vital organs" and "Making enough internal destruction for clean kills". If you understand these 3 subjects you have found the golden path. And you are doing the right thing here if you go out and try things off yourself. Nothing beats real life experience in this department. Cheers and happy shooting, Bolta

Hi flash, To simply answer the question on this thread I will have to say that the gun that fits you best would probably be the best gun for hunting. By this I mean you have to find a gun that you really feel comfortable with and that will cover your shooting needs. A lot of the time this is an overlooked subject while people comes with a lot of brands and models from different makers, saying that "this" gun perform better than another model. Perhaps, this is true for them but it may not be true for you. Most of the PCP guns on the market today will perform quite well but the handling of each gun will not feel the same to every airgunner. Some like their combo heavy, some want it to be light, some want it to balance perfectly - some don´t and some airgunners like to have adjustable stocks for a better fit. I could easy start to mentioned a lot of PCP models that I think will perform extremely well BUT since you have not given some really specific details about how you exacly would like your gun to perform and what type of scope you want on it and etc. things, so I won´t do this. But out from your budget it have to be second hand with accesories. If I were you I would save up and buy new gun instead, thats just my opinion. Cheers, Bolta

Hi again, This is absolutely true but we are now talking 2 different muzzle energies here, right ? But again, the weight of each pellets is not the key factor in killing performance. It is the destruction level that particular pellet can make inside a quarry that counts. Let us for example take a long thought here and say you have 2 different shapes of pellets in the same caliber with approx. the same weight shot from the same gun. Each pellet will have enough energy to penetrate and reaching the vital organs of a quarry and perhaps go the whole way through. One pellet is pointed, the other one is hollowpointed. What would now happen in theory ? Well, in theory the pointed pellet will go through you quarry leaving only a small wound channel through the quarry giving not the best kill performance you actually could get if you have used a different type of pellet shape. Now, we take the hollowpointed pellet and this one too goes the whole way through the quarry leaving a much larger wound channel because the pellet really expanded upon impact. Now, may I ask is the pellet energy at a quarry or how much the pellet actually weights in anyway a key factor in killing performance, if the pellet has enough energy to penetrate and reaching the vital organs of a quarry ? So, if this is true then a hunter should be much more concerned about hitting inside the killzones and make as much internal destruction as possible to get the cleanest kills as one actually can do. Cheers, Bolta

Hi Spider.20, You are absolutely right about that not many FAC .25 airguns are available on the market today. Daystate is making the Air Ranger in .25, the gun taking over after the Huntsman period. Ben Taylor will do a FAC Rapid in .25 if you like. There is still the Career airguns in .25. Also the Air Force Condor model can be modified to .25, if you like. The Theoben Eliminator, as you mentioned is also on the market. Don´t know about the Wiscombe range of airguns, perhaps these too ? Or else, there is still custom makers like john Bowkett, Stalker rifles, Barnes and perhaps Dennis Quakenbush in the US. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Bindi. May I ask what do you mean by "terminal energy" since you are using this particular expression for killing power ? Second. The actually weight of different pellets is not the key factor in killing power. The most important factor in this matter is how your quarry will receive the pellet and what happens upon impact and inside and through the quarry. The actually pellet energy at a quarry is only for penetration and reaching the vital organs plus expansion of the pellet. You can not use the actually energy itself for anything regarding killing power because the internal destruction level is the one thing only which decides how clean a kill will be. I hope this clear some things up or perhaps put some other thoughts into motion. Cheers, Bolta

+50 ft/lbs Daystate Huntsman, spider.20. The gun is now out of production. I would suggest if you want to go FAC in .25 then you need to pick a gun of a least 30 ft/lbs or else you won´t get as flat trajectory as you could get. Choose something between 30 to 60 ft/lbs in .25 to get the best results. If you choose a FAC .22 then get something around 30 ft/lbs, not much over and not much under 30 ft/lbs. Cheers,

Hi, I most make comment on hunting with FAC airguns in this thread because this is not really mentioned. Sub 12 ft/lbs airguns are mentioned quite a deal and for these choosing either .177, .20 or .22 does not make the big difference. But lets us now talk FAC guns because then you put these into action some things will change. Always remember, that in killing a quarry two things are important in this matter. And these are shot placement and internal destruction levels. To take shot placement first, if you shoot a high power airgun (from approx. 25 ft/lbs and going up) you will normally get a good flat trajectory if you match the pellet weight correctly to the gun meaning for many airgunners better ability to place the shot right into the killzone of a quarry. Choosing high power airguns also mean that you can shoot a rather heavy pellet weight for better resistance to crosswinds, getting better penetration and "normally" better expansion of the pellet upon impact and you can get as flat trajectory as you possible can get almost no matter what caliber you are using. Normally .177 and sometimes the .20 is out of the picture because of too low pellet weight available on the market for airgunners. Now, let us take a look on the killing performance of different calibers. As said before destruction levels mean a big thing in this matter if we are going to get CLEAN kills. Higher destruction levels comes from a wider and deeper wound channel. If the pellets don´t expand upon impact with a quarry you will get almost the same diameter of the pellet right through the quarry and if we are looking at the .20 we don´t get as high destruction level as .22 and .25. That is the big problem with the .20 caliber. If the same types of pellets do expand upon impact in each caliber then we will have the same picture, .22 and especially the .25 come out as winners. I will gladly put some info of my own experience into this matter. As many probably know I am shooting a .25 on high power setting and using Bisley Pest Control pellets as my main hunting pellet. Try to imagine what happens then such a pellet hit a quarry ? I can tell you that the wound channel completly through the quarry normally will be close to .50" making alot of destruction inside a quarry and making the kill as clean as you can get it on airgun quarry. 2spring, I will give you a very good advice here. Before you jump to ANY what so ever conclusion you MUST try things off first yourself to find the golden thread. Reading books and information found on the internet will not give you any clear pictures of what really goes on. Testing yourself, my mate is the best and most reliable thing you can ever do. Cheers - Bolta

So what your saying is that all you have strived to get accross here, is just unprecise guide lines!!! Sorry Bolta, but you have to agree, what you put was quite funny. :thumbs: Hi, Sorry, I don´t get what you mean by that ? What I am saying quite clearly is that you should not trust any printed information before yourself has tested it to be completely true in every single shooting case. Or else you are fooling yourself and you probably don´t get any better in that particular performance. If I understand you correctly in this matter, you are thinking that I have found the golden way here. Not quite true, I can tell you. BUT I have got better in killing performance simply because of testing instead of reading unreliable books and information found on the internet. You are fooling yourself, Axe if you think such unreliable information is better than your own testing of your particular airgun system. By the way, if anyone did read the linked Beeman page you will in the end of text actually read that this information stated there is just GUIDE LINES and nothing else. Cheers, Bolta

Hi again, After reading the above linked page (Beeman website) I will say for sure that this information is not trustworthy simply because no real information is on the table. The word "shock" is also mentioned without any form for further explanation. Just remember, this text is written years ago where people did not have quite the same experience as many have now. Not to say that the information is completely out of line and outdated but I would personal not use this information on that page for anything. Your own testing will give much better knowledge than this webpage. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Where exactly do you have this information from ? And is it a statement you can really trust in every case ? Now, I would like to get down to the bottom of this statement so we can all have the truth on the table here. What I have learn and tried over the years is that this statement does not hold ANY form of water. The main thing that kills a quarry is internal destruction of tissue, veins and vessels - nothing else. A MINIMUM power level for penetration and reaching the internal organs is NOT the answer to a clean kill - "not a chance there, mate" ! You always looking for maximum destruction levels to get the clean kills you are after and THAT is that. Just for minute think about a pointed pellet shot through a rabbits brain with a entering energy level of approx. 3 to 4 ft/lbs. Do you really think this pellet will get you a lot of very clean kills ? No, you absolutely right - it is the destruction level that really counts in every case regarding killing power. I think it is the time now if folks that comes with a such statement like this that they also should put some hard information on the table for backing such statements up. In my clear opinion, we all (also the Anti-gun people) would like the truth to come freely out in the open then we speak. Not for getting any personal in this case but such statements put every single airgunner in a bad spot - meaning that those who should really know a great deal about killing quarry DO NOT know anything at all. Cheers, Bolta Bolta, Have a look at this site all your questions answered :thumbs: http://www.beeman.com/calselect.htm Regards P03 Hi, First of all, this was what I feared ! You are coming with some undocmented internet information about killing powers expressed in ft/lbs but what can you use it for and most important can you trust this kind of information ? I would say that these power levels is a unprecise guide line. As I wrote in another thread only testing on live quarry with your own particular airgun/pellet combination at different ranges will give the real and best information about the killing performance of your particular airgun system. You can not read this kind of information on the internet or in books - you must YOURSELF go out and get the experience. This is absolutely the best thing you can do. I can put in that I myself have got a lot more information by simply testing than I ever got from several books written about hunting with airguns. I learned for example that high power FAC airguns have much higher killing performance than non-FAC guns at different ranges and on different quarry. And what kind of results you are getting with different pellet types at different ranges. I could go on here.... This kind of information is much more valuable for any hunter/pest controller out there than some "few power levels flying around in the air", so of speak. And I would suggest everyone who wants to get better in killing performance to only go the testing way and almost forget about the books (use the books or internet information as only unprecisely guide lines). Cheers, Bolta

Hi, You are talking about shock effect with airguns. No shock effect can happen with airguns because of the low velocity involved here. Forget all about hydrostatic and hydraulic shock effect because they can absolutely not happen with airguns - only with high velocity firearms. The only shock effect you will get with airguns is blood shock from blood loss. Again, the main cause of death of a quarry is the destruction level you make inside. Nothing else matters in this case expect that you of course have to hit inside the killzones to get clean kills. You are mentioning .22 vs. .177 where .22 creating more damages inside the quarry than .177. Yes, normal this is the case, not always, but most of times it is correct. A .22 pellet may carry more energy with it downrange but this extra energy should be look upon like the energy needed for penetration and reaching the vital internal parts of a quarry PLUS making a pellet expands (if expandable type) to get you a larger wound channel, meaning a faster/cleaner kill. From my own experience with sub 12 ft/lbs guns I have found that there is not so much difference between .177 and .22 in killing performance, although I personal feel that the .22 comes out as a small winner of these two. The case is completely another business with FAC powered airguns. Here, I would always say that the larger calibers (.22 and .25) are the best small bore calibers you can use for hunting/pest control legal airgun quarry. No, doubt about that ! Cheers, Bolta

Over penetration means it goes through. Period. What it does on the way through is irrelevant. Hi, If you do not separate these two terms you will not be able to use any of them. I mean here that I many times have heard people saying they got over-penetration and not got a clean kill. Well, most of my shots do over-penetrate BUT I get clean kills - how can this be, may I ask ? Therefor, if you separate these terms you get a clean meaning for both terms without any form of confussing. Therefor I have shoot through situation with clean kills and I would guess that many other airgunners would have the same situation. But people who do not get clean kills have OVER-PENETRATION if they shoot completely through their quarry. See, this way we all know what we are talking about, right ? Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Clean kills CAN NOT be reached alone with any sort of energy transfer ! Again, this shows clearly the lack of experience then we are talking killing power. This may be because no real information is available to us hunters/pest controllers and it is a rather big shame in my opinion. I will give people ONE good and solid advice in this matter, do not trust any form for internet information and book information WITHOUT some decent test results to back it up with. You owe this to yourself and certainly to other people. You can only use the energy level a pellet has at its target to ONE solid thing and that is penetrating and reaching the vital internal organs of a quarry. The energy level itself can not and will not kill anything at all. The only ONE thing that kills and kills a quarry clean is how much destruction of vital tissue, veins and vessels you do - and NOTHING ELSE ! This information is vital to know in killing power and if you can not understand this you will not get any better in killing performance ever. To find out how your particular airgun/pellet choice is working on live quarry, you will have to go out and test for yourself and evaluate each and every kill you are making. No, you can not find such results on the internet or in a book - YOU, yourself has to do these tests on live quarry to find the optimum performance you are after. This is VERY IMPORTANT information. Perhaps, I know what killing power is all about but this information is certainly not found on the internet or in books - it is found in real testing on live quarry giving me clear and solid evidences of the truth. Information that is valuable for all airgunners. Cheers, Bolta

Hi again, Just for being so annoying as I can be. It seems to me that people is confussing the word "over-penetration" with a shoot through shot. These two things ain´t the same thing, Gentlemen ! Over-penetration means clearly and without any confussing that a pellet goes right through your quarry without making enough damage inside to get you a clean kill - and THATS it ! A shoot through situation means that a pellet passes right through your quarry and either kill cleanly and instantly or not at all. I don´t why people always are mixing these two cases but again I can only guess this is because the lack of experience and understanding of things that is really going on. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, Where exactly do you have this information from ? And is it a statement you can really trust in every case ? Now, I would like to get down to the bottom of this statement so we can all have the truth on the table here. What I have learn and tried over the years is that this statement does not hold ANY form of water. The main thing that kills a quarry is internal destruction of tissue, veins and vessels - nothing else. A MINIMUM power level for penetration and reaching the internal organs is NOT the answer to a clean kill - "not a chance there, mate" ! You always looking for maximum destruction levels to get the clean kills you are after and THAT is that. Just for minute think about a pointed pellet shot through a rabbits brain with a entering energy level of approx. 3 to 4 ft/lbs. Do you really think this pellet will get you a lot of very clean kills ? No, you absolutely right - it is the destruction level that really counts in every case regarding killing power. I think it is the time now if folks that comes with a such statement like this that they also should put some hard information on the table for backing such statements up. In my clear opinion, we all (also the Anti-gun people) would like the truth to come freely out in the open then we speak. Not for getting any personal in this case but such statements put every single airgunner in a bad spot - meaning that those who should really know a great deal about killing quarry DO NOT know anything at all. Cheers, Bolta

Hi, If this was really true we all would be very happy and live on. But this figure is absolutely the MINIMUM power for a clean kill on a rabbit and not a thing you can count on. You always want as much energy at your quarry as possible for SURE CLEAN kills. More energy at your quarry means a better chance of penetrating and reaching the vital organs plus expanding the pellet (if expandable type) to get a larger wound channel for the fastest/cleanest kills. And if you really should live with this rule it will also means that you have to shoot your quarry at a certain range each and every time. Is this really realistic ? Cheers, Bolta

Hi, I would also say that you did not hit the right spot there and I mean right between the wings. No one should expect a clean kill if you do not hit inside the killzones, no matter what type of guns being used ! Yes, with sub 12 ft/lbs guns a woodpigeons feather can act like armour catching/absorbing the pellet energy and almost stop a pellet from entering the quarry. So only head, neck and right between the wings from behind shots should be used with sub 12 ft/lbs guns. It is a completely different case if you use FAC guns. With a high power FAC gun (going from approx. 20 ft/lbs and up) you can easy takes this type of quarry down almost from any angle going for either heart/lung shots or head/neck shots. The only angle you NEVER should shoot a woody from is a directly front shot to the middle of the chest of the quarry. Even high power FAC airguns up to around 70-80 ft/lbs will not be able do this or if they can, they will have a very hard time of doing it (my nearly 60 ft/lbs airgun can not do it). Cheers, Bolta

Hi, It is true that .177 in sub 12 ft/lbs guns will have flatter trajectory than for example the .22 but this may not be true if we step up to high power FAC air rifles. In fact, FAC rifles in .22 and .25 will many times give better accuracy and flatter trajectory with medium to heavy weight pellets than a sub 12 ft/lbs rifle with light .177 pellets. Now, about the statement about .22 with heavier weight pellets giving more energy transfer = cleaner kills. This is completely out of line. It has nothing to do with the truth at all. It is true that a heavy weight .22 pellet has more energy downrange than a light .177 pellet but this has nothing what so ever to do with killing power resulting in cleaner kills. I would suggest any one to look at this energy a pellet or what ever sort of projectile has as it target to be only for penetrating, reaching the vital internal organs and for expanding the pellet (if expandable) - and nothing else. More energy itself CAN NOT kill any cleaner than less energy if you have enough energy for penetrating and reaching the vital organs. So what actually kills ? Well, this is rather simple. The destruction level inside the quarry decide how fast/clean a kill will be. The higher destruction level up to a certain, perhaps unknown border, will make a cleaner kill. Higher destruction levels can easily be reached with a moderate powered gun and not only with a high power FAC gun. If someone finds that destruction border for a certain quarry, this person will soon finds out of that more energy will not kill a quarry any cleaner because you CAN NOT kill anything deader than dead ! So energy levels can not and should not be used for anything regarding killing power what so ever, EXCEPT from one thing. And this thing is that a hunter/pest controller must have enough energy to penetrate the "outerskin" plus have enough energy to reach the vital organs and destroy these to get a clean kill. A hunter/pest controller should be much more concerned about shot placement and making maximum destruction inside their quarry (a wider and more deeper wound channel, best is always to shoot completely through the quarry to get the longest and safest wound channel). Cheers, Bolta

Hi, The absolutely best place to get shooting videos or DVDs on airgun quarry is : www.shootingvideos.com Especially, the Fred Carter collection is pretty good. Get them all ! Also this collection shows clearly how effectively both non-FAC and FAC powered airguns are on quarry plus you have rimfire and shotgun action too. Cheers, Bolta