Increasing drive, enthusiasm & speed?

[cab09]

I have a 12 month old lab and training was going really well. His is obedient and steady and was retreiving well to easy marks and backs. To move our training on we started some simple lined blinds and directional retrieves along fences which he had no problem with. I noticed a few weeks ago he started to show signs of decreasing drive on our recall training and stop whistles. I changed locations for training with no effect and following that I rested him for over a week. However he still seemed to lack the drive he used to have.

 

The problem now is I can't really progress our training as he seems sickened and even bored by the retreiving excercises and doesn't seem to see a retrieve at the end of our session as a reward. I have always praised, encouraged and even tried the old way of running away from him to speed him up. All with no real sucess. He now seems more interested in doing his own separate thing away from me eg scent marking and hunting.

 

What can I do to get the fun association with me back and the speed and enthusiasm? Now when we go out he really seems uninterested and everything is a chore to him! Recall and retrieves are merely a trot. He even stopped tonight to scent mark on a retrieve!!!

 

Any help much appreciated as I don't know how I can progress his training as he is bored with the usual obedience and steadyness drills and sick of retrieves. I did ration retrieving before this stage but training now involves a lot of it.

 

Sorry to go on

 

Thanks

CAB

[libs]

Just remember, cocaine is never a solution.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless, of course, its dissolved in water.

Edited April 9, 2010 by libs

[cab09]

Thanks for that....... Really helpful and much appreciated.

Edited April 10, 2010 by cab09

[blacklab]

Hi Cab

 

he is sticking his 2 fingers up to you, typical teenager.

 

is he kenneled ?

 

do you allow free time, where he can mark or do you toilet him?

 

how much retrieving have you been doing with him?

 

how often are you training him?

 

Lee

[cab09]

Hi Cab

 

he is sticking his 2 fingers up to you, typical teenager.

 

is he kenneled ?

 

He is kenneled outside and has 16ft run.

 

do you allow free time, where he can mark or do you toilet him?

 

I give a command for him to toilet (busy busy) and also give him down time (go play). Only introduced the down time a month or so ago when he started to look sickened.

 

how much retrieving have you been doing with him?

 

Retrieving was rationed to 2 to 3 times a week with 2 to 3 simple marked retrieves and go backs recently. However tried to end his obedience and steadyness sessions with a retrieve reward but he doesn't see it as a reward I don't think. Moving his training on recently for directional commands and longer backs we upped them to about 6 every other day with him not retrieving a further 4 (mixed in).

 

Thanks in advance for your help

 

how often are you training him?

 

He has training session once a day on a morning fir around 20 to 30 mins with further 30 mins walk after. Then walked on evening no training. Swapped training sessions from morning to evening and vice versa also.

 

Lee

Edited April 10, 2010 by cab09

[Lloyd90]

Sounds like you might have been doing too much retrieving mate , A good way I was shown to increase the speed coming back is to stand near a corner or a hedge or something and once you see the dog has found the dummy and spooted you, step out of fight. I did this and Skye comes flying in to me . This is what my trainer showed me and his dog is really fast on the retrieves Best of luck!

 

If its from too much retrieving then Id leave it for a month or so and give the dog a rest, Is it a dog or bitch ?

[darren m]

CAB -- your right mate it sounds like he's bored

what are you using as a retrieve , try changing it to something more exciting ( rabbit skin , phez wings etc ) . turn and run or walk the opposite direction while recalling him , see if that will gee him up

 

Also you could lay off retrieves alltogether and just get the dog to recall instead half doz times , get excited yourself and give him a big fuss and treats ( dont worry about the delivery ) just getting him back to you with as much enthusiasim as poss.

[cab09]

Hi bigthug - thanks for the info I like the sound of going out of site on the return. When you say rest him do you mean altogether ie no training at all or just retrieves? Sorry forgot to mention it's a dog nit bitch.

 

Hi Darran - again thanks for the info I have tried different dummys with rabbit skins and tennis balls etc. He is also now really slow on his recall whistle as I had the same idea as you to concentrate on this. Was thinking of just laying off altogether and may be trying to increase the play element / bond in the back garden only as I feel now he doesn't even want to be with me (as daft as it sounds).

 

Thanks again

Edited April 10, 2010 by cab09

[Lloyd90]

Hi bigthug - thanks for the info I like the sound of going out of site on the return. When you say rest him do you mean altogether ie no training at all or just retrieves? Sorry forgot to mention it's a dog nit bitch.

 

When I had probs with my bitch she was a bit younger than urs, (She 11 months now) But I stopped all training completely as she wudnt retrieve back to me. I sought help from the breeder I got her off. I still practiced walking on heal and sit n stay but no retrieving at all. Once it was sorted started training it again.

 

Mine was a little slow sometimes when coming back if there was alot of scent about. I went round the corner of a bush down with the trainer as he advise and she came running in like lightning It looks to work well, Her mother, his dog comes flying back with retrieves Give it a go mate!!

 

If not Id say stop and have a few weeks off entirely so he dont get bored. How much retrieving are you doing mate ?

Edited April 10, 2010 by Bigthug87

[butcherboy]

You state he is doing every retrieve no problem..............................well try stretching him a little.

 

Try giving him some really long memory retrieves. The dog will usually get better as it's tested.

[cracker]

Sounds like you might have been doing too much retrieving mate ... If its from too much retrieving then Id leave it for a month or so and give the dog a rest, Is it a dog or bitch ?

 

Did you not read how he's rationing retrieves, as you lot are prone to do?

 

Retrieving was rationed to 2 to 3 times a week with 2 to 3 simple marked retrieves and go backs recently. However tried to end his obedience and steadyness sessions with a retrieve reward but he doesn't see it as a reward I don't think. Moving his training on recently for directional commands and longer backs we upped them to about 6 every other day with him not retrieving a further 4 (mixed in).

 

Unfortunately, this sort of "sluggishness" is one of the perils of rationing and withholding retreves. Also symptomatic of predictable retrieves when you do give them and no distinctive "cues" for retrieves to let the dog know if they're blinds or marks. You're not challenging the dog. In other words, the dog's having CAB on because it can and also because it's got no reason not to--no preplanned training, nobody but CAB throwing marks for it (a helper is always preferable). And hiding from the dog before its return is for 12-week-old pups--or will you be doing this in the field, too? The cooperative dog always wants to see you, the handler, because it will use you as a touchstone for "flying" back to you with bird or bumper on a straight line--even (if it's been trained) through water.

 

This

 

You state he is doing every retrieve no problem..............................well try stretching him a little.

 

Try giving him some really long memory retrieves. The dog will usually get better as it's tested.

 

is what you need--along with a better idea of advanced training, and how you intend to train the dog up.

 

There's a thread on the Labrador Forums about "Preplanned training" and goes on (and on) for 8-10 pages without the first revelation of what preplanned training actually constitutes. For American training, it constitutes the entire training session, every session--because dogs learn when you teach them and you teach them with "concepts" and cues. And a training programme that distinguishes for them so that the retrieving work is clearly delineated. And I can tell you that British Labs aren't in any way allergic to it...

 

MG

[cab09]

Hi everyone

 

Thanks for all the replies and advice, its much appreciated.

 

Cracker, Im not following 100% what you are trying to say (probably me being stupid). I really do feel that he is getting sickened off due to the amount of training we have been doing - my fault. I dont understand it if I kept giving him retrieves all the time how it will improve his 'keeness'; every book i have read always says to stop when the dog is still keen for more and ration sensibly or otherwise he will get sick (understandably).

 

We have a structured training plan which is planned in advance most weeks - dependant upon how the dog has coped with the traning during the week gone by. We go over the previous tasks (not every time though) to keep them instilled and introduce new concepts gradually. He has structured and consistent commands for everything, including retrieving i.e. 'back' (with direction to the area by hand) for blinds and his name for marks. My wife throws marks at increasing distances once a week also.

 

We are at a stage now where more advanced techniques are being introduced slowly and gradually broken down into small manageable tasks. We have started directional training i.e. along fencelines and casting from a short distance from the stop whistle. I have increased distances for 'backs' but found he plays with the dummy on his longer return back to me. I also hide a tennis ball in the same corner of the field (only recently) and sent him for that blind - which he enjoys.

 

My main observation being, he has gradually become less interested in the training, especially the retrieving - as this is what we are doing more of now because of the level we are at. I think this is solely due to the amount/ duration and intesnity of his sessions, as i felt i steadied him at the right time and age also. I feel that we may need to slow down a little.

 

Many thanks again everyone for your time and help.

CAB

[cracker]

CAB, you asked about "increasing (actually restoring) drive, enthusiasm and speed." You asked

 

I dont understand it if I kept giving him retrieves all the time how it will improve his 'keeness'; every book i have read always says to stop when the dog is still keen for more and ration sensibly or otherwise he will get sick (understandably).

 

There is a one-word answer for you: focus. If a dog has it in its head that it expects to pick every bird or dummy that goes down, it will have a sharper focus on retrieving. And that focus will carry over to the other attributes you're seeking to restore--unless you've inadvertently taken them away or the dog didn't have bottom in the first place (it happens). On the other hand, if the dog watches a bird or dummy go down and you withhold the retrieve, you are essentially "no'ing" the dog off a retrieve and breaking its focus. It's that simple, whether your training recognizes that or not. If I'm a batsman, I'm focused on every delivery. If I'm at the other end of the wicket, I'm also focused on every delivery. But it's a different focus. Your dog is already steady and you're not having any problem with overexcitement, obviously. You just need to help it focus.

 

Again, you asked about "increasing (actually restoring, based on how the dog was before) drive, enthusiasm and speed." I doubt that 30 minutes' training a day dampened that drive, enthusiasm and speed, but how you trained, and how the dog responded to your training, may have. Or you may have a Lab that just isn't amenable to further training, there are those, rare though they may be. Labs aren't known as "training machines" for nothing.

 

Mind telling what your "structured plan" consists, or consisted of? The thing about training retrievers, training them competitively, is it's all about balance. The dog needs to be happy every step of the way and actually "anticipate" training, to the point where, when they're let out of the kennel or loaded onto the truck, they are almost bursting out of their skin with enthusiasm for what they're about to get into.

 

And if your "structured plan" includes concepts that the dog can be convinced are play, then you're way ahead.

 

Nothing wrong with this, certainly

We are at a stage now where more advanced techniques are being introduced slowly and gradually broken down into small manageable tasks.

but you may be overanalyzing and either not giving the dog enough credit by challenging it--or else you've reinvented British retriever training, as "advanced techniques" and "gradually broken down into small manageable tasks" don't really go in harness together from what little I know about your training.

 

...every book i have read always says to stop when the dog is still keen for more and ration sensibly or otherwise he will get sick (understandably).

 

Another thing: Dogs don't get "sick" from training; they may get bored by it, or resistant to it, or flat refuse to train a'tall, but training doesn't make them sick. Also: You leave them "keen for more" for when they're being trained up; once they've reached a higher level of retrieving, it's your responsibility to find a balance where they're keen for what you're training into them, not just the retrieving.

 

At that stage, retrieving ain't what you're training--retrievers retrieve. You're teaching--and learning about your dog. Some retrievers, for example, aren't keen on running blind retrieves. How might you make them keener? You put out dead birds instead of tennis balls :blink: or dummies, so that the retriever gets to retrieve what it will be retrieving as a retriever, i.e., a working gundog. The bird retrieve becomes the reward for running the blind, and also imprints on the dog that there may be a dead bird out there to retrieve on its next blind, and its next after that--thus generating anticipation that leads to enthusiasm.

 

Good luck, hope you'll find the answers sought for your dog in a positive way,

 

MG

Edited April 13, 2010 by cracker

[cracker]

CAB, you asked about "increasing (actually restoring) drive, enthusiasm and speed."

 

Short answer, CAB, is you don't increase them at all, you're responsible for putting the dog in the best position to beckon what it was born with. This is what that position looked like today

 

 

after a day of preplanned training that probably goes a little further than what you're on about.

 

MG

[blacklab]

hows the training going CAB?

[darren m]

pre-planning

 

i like the idea of pre-planned training , i always end up doing the same thing and i,m sure i,m boring my dog sometimes

 

can you give us some examples that would give the dog variety and keep us both more enthusiastic

 

thanks

[cab09]

hows the training going CAB?

 

hi blacklab, training is now going really well - entirely different dog! Sent you a PM

[cab09]

pre-planning

 

i like the idea of pre-planned training , i always end up doing the same thing and i,m sure i,m boring my dog sometimes

 

can you give us some examples that would give the dog variety and keep us both more enthusiastic

 

thanks

 

Hi Darren

 

I found I had the same problem as I was getting bored and so was the dog doing the sane routine everytime. I'm not sure what age or level your dog is at.

 

I'm not an experienced trainer so I bought some of the training guides from the gun dog club online. These, I think, are great value for money with good explanation and reasoning etc. By working my way through this guide I could plan my sessions the week in advance and progress at the dogs pace and not mine.

 

I might do steadyness training one day then retrieving excercises the other then another day mix and match the two. I vary the distances and locations also with increases the dogs attention and awareness.

 

Within the steadyness training I have a number of excercises which I can swap and change around such as clockface with dummys and a pattern drill which consists of long duration sit at distances etc.

 

For retrieving days I have marks, go backs, blind go backs and directional training. All of which are varied a different locations and distances.

 

I practice heelwork everytime also, on and off the lead now with some distractions being introduced. Within the heelwork and steadyness I introduce the stop whistle association. Eg at the end of a 2 minute stay whilst facing the dog I blow stop whistle and return to reinforce it. I also slip the stop whistle in whilst doing heelwork and vary it at different speeds eg walking at heel and stop whistle sit at side, then build up to jogging at heel and blowing stop whistle sit.

 

As I say I'm no experienced trainer and not sure what stage your dog is at. I would recommend a training guide from the gun dog club also. I'd you let me know what you have been doing with your dog I may be able to list sone different excercises for you??