shell reloading

[Guest cookoff013]

so,

my real passion is with understanding the ballistics and the ecanomics of the cartridges. this has been very puzzling but

i`ve learned lots of things. i`d like to share this with the reloaders on here because it is often very confusing. i`ve had some scary conversations and some intresting chats.

i`d like to just say a few words about what ballistics mean to me.

 

first i`d like to say, pressure is needed for cartridges. without it cartridges and all bullets wont work. pressure makes the shot come out. pressure is what makes cartridges fun.

speed is needed for the shot to get to the target and penetrate it. it is vital for all types of shot, some need more energy, some less.

 

what do all these numbers mean? what can i "the homeloader" use this to my advantage?.

well just because a recipe is written down doesnt mean it is any good. i`ve seen many "lemon" cartridges published. so i`m going to give you guys a "heads up"

 

first i`m going to give you an example

 

20grains powder - wad - 1oz lead shot-1000fps -12000psi.

 

this load is a complete lemon, it has the highest possable pressure, slowest speed, and the payload isnt large. this recipe is telling me the powder isnt for this application. it is stressed, and is

giving most of its energy as high pressure. if more powder is added, then the pressure will increase beyond safe limits. removing powder removes pressure and speed. making the cartridge still useless.

the powder is completely stressed. this is a bad load, but is still publishable.

 

take the same load and knock off 1/4 or 1/8 of the shot and the recipe becomes very nice the example.

 

20grains powder - wad - 3/4oz lead shot-1400fps -9000psi

good pressure, great speed, at 20 grains isnt going to be too expensive to shoot.

 

 

but on the otherhand, when you have the total opposite can cause problems, because the powder isnt working properly.

 

 

 

35grains powder -wad- 1oz lead shot -1500fps -7000psi. this load looks good on paper, but is very under used. 35 grains is a huge charge, but very little pressure is generated.

 

it has a good speed, but a poor pressure, and i`ll bet its prone to temperature fluctuations or pokyness. it wouldnt supprise me if powder came shooting out the muzzel.

 

the great speed is this only loads good point.

 

this powder is generally used for higher payloads. adding more will just shoot more unburned powder out the barrel.

 

 

 

but this also less powder is used.

 

30grains -wad-1,1/4oz lead -1350fps-10,000psi - this is a very good load, good burn, payload and speed. and is a very fine load for game.

 

 

 

so the next time you see a cartridge recipe, from your mates, a book, the net, any resourse. just check and think about what is actually happening.

 

look out for the best data, that meet your needs. is there too much pressure? is the powder working efficiently? is it costing me too much per shot?

 

is powder coming out the barrel.

 

 

 

if you select a load thats has good pressure, good speed, then you`ll have no problems.

[henry d]

1,1/4oz lead -1350fps-10,000psi - ........ a very fine load for game.

 

36gm......game.....wouldn`t want to be on a hot peg firing that on a 150 bird day

[pavman]

 

pressure is what makes cartridges fun.

 

Pressure fun :blink: pardon me all over the place but not in my book

 

speed is needed for the shot to get to the target and penetrate it.

 

Speed is only one factor mass being another slower speeds and more mass gives penertration and often better results why flip a ping pong ball at the speed of light when you can chuck a brick shoot 3mm at Geese at 1350 FPS and you are wasting your time over 35 yards shoot 5mm at 1000 FPS and you have an excellant load with ranges up to and beyond 70 yards

 

test have shown for every 0.5 mm you reduce the size the pellets (in my case steel shot) your kill zone is reduced by 9 yards yet you still get tozzers lifting a gun to Geese loaded with 32 grms number 3's when passing at 50 yards overhead and some, worth testing on a feather pillow at 50 yards after all thats what duck and Geese are made of

 

[Guest cookoff013]

pavman,

i bet every cartridge you`ve fired has pressure. these powder manufacturers make powders that are often more efficient at 10,000psi. those super light loads need 10,000psi just to make them burn right. if they didnt they would bloop. causing problems. pressure is what makes shot leave the barrel. there is good pressure and bad. bad pressure being too low, and in excess of 12,000psi. these different powders are the manufacturers response to keep pressure within saami and cip limits.

i will still stand by my statement, pressure is fun.

 

find, for me a cartridge that has no pressure !

 

 

as with the latter part of your post, is more to do with shotsize selection more to do with ballistics. as my cartridges examples didnt have a shotsize listed. but on the other part of the argument, wouldnt 5mm pellets at 1700fps be better than 5mm pellets at 800fps?

 

 

speed is energy, energy is needed to get the shot as fast as possable to the target.

 

shotsize selection and payload selection together are what make us buy the cartridges we use. 32g #6 for woodies, 7s for clays, 9s for skeet.

its what makes the shooting world go round !

 

 

keep safe !

[henry d]

as with the latter part of your post, is more to do with shotsize selection more to do with ballistics. as my cartridges examples didnt have a shotsize listed. but on the other part of the argument, wouldnt 5mm pellets at 1700fps be better than 5mm pellets at 800fps?

 

Not necessarily, as the pattern can be blown by it and pattern also kills

 

speed is energy, energy is needed to get the shot as fast as possable to the target. F=MxA

[starlight32]

36gm......game.....wouldn`t want to be on a hot peg firing that on a 150 bird day

 

I always use 36g-I dont do 150 bird days though.

[Guest cookoff013]

as with the latter part of your post, is more to do with shotsize selection more to do with ballistics. as my cartridges examples didnt have a shotsize listed. but on the other part of the argument, wouldnt 5mm pellets at 1700fps be better than 5mm pellets at 800fps?

 

Not necessarily, as the pattern can be blown by it and pattern also kills

 

speed is energy, energy is needed to get the shot as fast as possable to the target. F=MxA

 

pav

- where in the speed data did i mention pattern ? you cant theoretically say any load doesnt pattern, whether at 1700fps or 100 fps.

 

f=mxa ?

if you dont like the speed, dont shoot them ! dealers choice.

[pavman]

as with the latter part of your post, is more to do with shotsize selection more to do with ballistics. as my cartridges examples didnt have a shotsize listed. but on the other part of the argument, wouldnt 5mm pellets at 1700fps be better than 5mm pellets at 800fps?

 

Not necessarily, as the pattern can be blown by it and pattern also kills

 

speed is energy, energy is needed to get the shot as fast as possable to the target. F=MxA

 

pav

- where in the speed data did i mention pattern ? you cant theoretically say any load doesnt pattern, whether at 1700fps or 100 fps.

 

f=mxa ?

if you dont like the speed, dont shoot them ! dealers choice.

 

 

I never said pattern did I, ref pressure I am somewhat of an expert, well at least in part of my field of knowleadge High Pressure Gas Testing in Oilfield applications....... there is no fun in it, it kills to say fun is plain silly

 

 

someone helpful may find my thread on pattern and powder from the testing with steel i did not long back, for Ref I did have help from IC at Clay Game.........

 

Anyway would a 5mm pellet be better at higher speed the answer is no which is why i had to slow it down to hold a pattern, the mass of the pellet is such that they try to force themselves away from each other and this blows the pattern so you end up with big gaps you could drive a bus through

 

of course its about balance

Edited February 11, 2011 by pavman

[onlyme]

easy lads. pressure is dangerous no doubt about it, but i think cookoffs point is that for economical use of powder it needs to be high enough to encourage a wasteless "lean burn" state so to speak so your making the most of what your using (burnrate and load effectively wisely used so its all burnt in the discharge cycle with maximum speed imparted without blowing the pattern or causing shot setback) why use 24.5 grains of powder for 10fps extra speed over 24grains..

the other thing i have noticed on rather rich slowburning loads is the effect of rocketing at the muzzle causing more muzzle flip . which can be reduced if the load is tweaked a little and generally in the more economical way....

[pavman]

easy lads. pressure is dangerous no doubt about it, but i think cookoffs point is that for economical use of powder it needs to be high enough to encourage a wasteless "lean burn" state so to speak so your making the most of what your using (burnrate and load effectively wisely used so its all burnt in the discharge cycle with maximum speed imparted without blowing the pattern or causing shot setback) why use 24.5 grains of powder for 10fps extra speed over 24grains..

the other thing i have noticed on rather rich slowburning loads is the effect of rocketing at the muzzle causing more muzzle flip . which can be reduced if the load is tweaked a little and generally in the more economical way....

 

the modern semi auto such as extrema II is very good at reducing flip, but for sure my old 10 bore can be a beast with a good powder charge

[Guest cookoff013]

easy lads. pressure is dangerous no doubt about it, but i think cookoffs point is that for economical use of powder it needs to be high enough to encourage a wasteless "lean burn" state so to speak so your making the most of what your using (burnrate and load effectively wisely used so its all burnt in the discharge cycle with maximum speed imparted without blowing the pattern or causing shot setback) why use 24.5 grains of powder for 10fps extra speed over 24grains..

the other thing i have noticed on rather rich slowburning loads is the effect of rocketing at the muzzle causing more muzzle flip . which can be reduced if the load is tweaked a little and generally in the more economical way....

 

correct !

 

take the alliant steel, 1oz steel loads, up to 45grains are used just to get the pressure good enough to burn well. 45 grains ! just to get 8000psi.

talk about inefficincy... but the speed !

[Explorer]

i bet every cartridge you`ve fired has pressure. these powder manufacturers make powders that are often more efficient at 10,000psi. those super light loads need 10,000psi just to make them burn right. if they didnt they would bloop. causing problems. pressure is what makes shot leave the barrel. there is good pressure and bad. bad pressure being too low, and in excess of 12,000psi. these different powders are the manufacturers response to keep pressure within saami and cip limits.

i will still stand by my statement, pressure is fun.

 

find, for me a cartridge that has no pressure !

I've measured some steel target loads to be around 6000 PSI but most of them are 8.000 - 10.000, it's done with RSI Pressure Trace II, but you are right that powders are having their best burn rate and amount burnt powder when they are around 10.000

[Guest cookoff013]

general rules of thumb i stick to data, that has...

 

10,000psi for light loads

9,000psi for most loads

 

speed, i try to keep 1200fps as a goal when lead is used.

 

as for powder charge, i just use what the recipe to get the 2 goals i have 1200fps and 9,000psi.

 

alliant steel for steel loads, i have as fast as possable within reason, 1600fps is do-able very easy, and 9000psi but at 40 grains of alliant steel.

 

"soft" type shot keep the speed 1200fps or so at 9000psi.

 

there are all sorts of recipes out there. some lemons some great classic loads. if you stick to those rules, then generally the data is great performance cartridges. there is no point loading lemons.