ajm1979 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Really starting to despair with my 18 month old lab. I've had Baxter since 6 weeks old and although he is my first gun dog I thought I had done most things right along the way. he never had squeaky toys,tugging toys anything like that. He is kennelled outside so as not spoil him with the missus in the house. He is extremely well bread (Drakeshead). Hi training took a lengthy break when he was 8-9 months old due to a shoulder problem which eventually righted itself. His retrieving on land or water was always pretty good,however I still resisted the temptation to take him out all last season and only ever let him have a couple of cold rabbits to retrieve which went fine. I re started his training a couple of months back and it seems to have gone horribly wrong he is hard mouthing everything he picks up and chewing it including the dummy, he retrieved a pigeon and ate the whole bird. I am lost as to what to do with him, anyone I have asked who has working dogs comes up with a rather blunt answer that involves a .22lr bullet which I could not possibly do. Is there a way of reversing this hard mouthing? All through him being a puppy he was a nightmare for chewing things whether it be a ball shoe mobile phone it didn't matter, I could only play fetch with solid balls or he would destroy them, Is this something I could have corrected earlier? Sorry to ask so may questions just at my whits end. I personally am thinking of getting another pup now to start again and keep this dog as a pet, and will manage the rest of the forthcoming season with my little spaniel for retrieving altthough he may struggle on the geese lol. Any help would really be appreciated from people with more experience than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 when I was at Chatsworth fair the other week there was a stall selling dummies,the one I look at was a duck,it had like softish body that floats and a hard head which moved when shook,the guy said there perfect for hard mouths dog as when they shake the hard head of the dummy smacks them on the nose no midea if it works but i can see the season in the madness,good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) One question... are you making him hard in the mouth by applying pressure to deliver a successful retrieve? I've seen several dogs crunch game, as they come into the last 20 yards from the handler, simply because of the tone of voice / incorrect use of eye contact... Funny enough they were labs too! Never had to train for this myself... But I remember reading a book which suggested training with par boiled eggs filled with chilli sauce! No idea if it works.. Good luck! Edited September 12, 2011 by garyb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 You shouldnt have left him at that stage realy. Heres the cure, back to basics lead work etc no retrieves make him earn them. Then dummies only only introduce game when frozen rock hard later on then cold game in socks. Above all do not despair and do not transmit lack of confidence to the dog they pick up on it big time. If he messes with a retrieve make him wish he didn't OR walk away and totally ignoor him stick him in the kennel and try again tommorow. Bad age this. Further issues then go to a pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1979 Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks for the advice so far, I have been right back to basics for the past 6 weeks only doing whistle work and recall only just re introduced dummies in the last 2 weeks. he just seems to chew on anything he puts in his mouth regardless of whether it for him to retrieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Too add, eating a pigeon is not indicative of a hard mouth. (maybee a hungry dog or an over ripe pigeon) I know that sounds crazy but my dog will eat carion but rerieve the same creasures when shot and sent out without a mark on them, will also peg an odd small bunny when hunting and that sometimes goes down the hatch (thats less than good but i don't make an issue out of it) . I have yet to have any damage on a retrieve. I have had him retrieve ducks and geese that are still alive and living in collections today, the same dog turns into a savage beast on large quarry i mean blood red eyes and totally crazy Theres more than one good gundog that ate the bag when left in the car alone Face it some won't pick pigeons and yours eats em in many ways good potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Is he chewing dummies, i.e. puncturing them, or just mouthing them with excitement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 If he is chewing everything not just retrieves - get his mouth checked by the vet before going any further. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks for the advice so far, I have been right back to basics for the past 6 weeks only doing whistle work and recall only just re introduced dummies in the last 2 weeks. he just seems to chew on anything he puts in his mouth regardless of whether it for him to retrieve. Reading Mikes post then back to this i think he might have a point what does he get that he can chew on? bones etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1979 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Well after a lot of conversations with people yesterday I took Baxter out for some more retrieve training last night. Now I know I may get slated for this one but following some advice I used an old dummy case with two wire brushes inside with the handles cut off. Theory being if he bites down hard on the retrieve it wont be very nice to say the least. Started off throwing a normal dummy a couple of times and as usual he brought it back mouthing it all the way, then moved on to the Wire brush dummy, First retrieve he got a bit of a shock when he picked it up but still brought it back mouthing it. Carried on for a good number of retrieves alternating between the normal dummy and the spiked dummy, still appears to mouth it but i'm thinking he cant be biting hard otherwise he would have been in megga discomfort. Thinking of continuing this for a couple of days gradually reducing the number of times include the wire brush dummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Have you considered teaching him to "hold" in a sit infront of you? I'd sit him up, with one hand under his chin (nicely) so that he can't shake his head... then offer him the dummy to his mouth with your other hand, once he takes the dummy.. praise with Good boy.. "Hold" "Good boy... Good Hold" while stroking his chest, obviously only make short goes at this - your looking for success and not offering a chance for him to chew.. Any attempt to chew or bite down you remove the dummy and can give him a stern NO! - Reset & Repeat exercise again. Basically trying to condition him that a dummy in the mouth is a good thing, and if he chews your there to get after him. Edited September 13, 2011 by garyb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Well after a lot of conversations with people yesterday I took Baxter out for some more retrieve training last night. Now I know I may get slated for this one but following some advice I used an old dummy case with two wire brushes inside with the handles cut off. Theory being if he bites down hard on the retrieve it wont be very nice to say the least. Started off throwing a normal dummy a couple of times and as usual he brought it back mouthing it all the way, then moved on to the Wire brush dummy, First retrieve he got a bit of a shock when he picked it up but still brought it back mouthing it. Carried on for a good number of retrieves alternating between the normal dummy and the spiked dummy, still appears to mouth it but i'm thinking he cant be biting hard otherwise he would have been in megga discomfort. Thinking of continuing this for a couple of days gradually reducing the number of times include the wire brush dummy. This is sort of the theory behind rock hard frozen game, The yanks use spikey vests to put onto dead game. However they are also obsessed about Force fetch and think the electic collar should be a first point of call. Do you have a rerieving lane or can you build one? Basically a long coridoor were the dog can only go out and come staight back, what you dont want to start is getting after him as it could lead to a game of chase me with my trophy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 If he is just mouthing retrieves and not biting on them then he is not hard mouthed, it comes from lack of experience and a soft mouth! - you are likely to stop him retrieving full stop if he gets "discomfort" when retrieving. Try a heavier dummy (3lb plus) he will not mouth that as he would drop it, if he is still playing with the retrieve or "Chewing" it then firstly get his mouth checked and then work out the cause before looking for the cure. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Agree with Mike, unsurprisingly as he's not known for talking nonsense Have you looked at his teeth or in his mouth? Any retained puppy teeth? Do his top and bottom jaw lines marry up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajm1979 Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks again for the advice, Will my normal vet check his mouth for abnormality's? He was more than happy to keep retreiving the spikey dummy and doesn't seem to have too much discomfort, would I be wrong to try again with a cold rabbit and see how he handles it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Thanks again for the advice, Will my normal vet check his mouth for abnormality's? He was more than happy to keep retreiving the spikey dummy and doesn't seem to have too much discomfort, would I be wrong to try again with a cold rabbit and see how he handles it? Dont laugh - well not too much - get 4 tins of beans and a long sock, plus 3 carrier bags. 2 tins at each end of the sock and the carrier bag in the middle (To make a soft bit) - make sure it is packet tight (Adjust by tying the knot tighter etc) - you want a dummy shape but soft in the middle - the beans are not there to put him off retrieving if he holds the tin - but to add weight) DONT throw it out - walk out and put it in plain sight about 20 yards away (or do a simply go back) - send the dog for it - once it picks it up -do not call it back to you -simply turn around and walk away from the dog - see how he handles the retrieve - is he mouthing it? - I doubt it I never call my dogs back to me on a retrieve, I expect them to race back to me straight away (not plod!) As for checking his mouth - you look first - any red/swollen areas - teeth look ok? anything stuck in the gums? does he look sore? how is he eating his food? does he pick at it gently? - have you or the kids been throwing sticks for him? Oh and yes any vet - but you should get an idea from answering the above to yourself honestly. Mike Edited September 13, 2011 by MiLisCer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Dont laugh - well not too much - get 4 tins of beans and a long sock, plus 3 carrier bags. 2 tins at each end of the sock and the carrier bag in the middle (To make a soft bit) - make sure it is packet tight (Adjust by tying the knot tighter etc) - you want a dummy shape but soft in the middle - the beans are not there to put him off retrieving if he holds the tin - but to add weight) DONT throw it out - walk out and put it in plain sight about 20 yards away (or do a simply go back) - send the dog for it - once it picks it up -do not call it back to you -simply turn around and walk away from the dog - see how he handles the retrieve - is he mouthing it? - I doubt it I never call my dogs back to me on a retrieve, I expect them to race back to me straight away (not plod!) As for checking his mouth - you look first - any red/swollen areas - teeth look ok? anything stuck in the gums? does he look sore? how is he eating his food? does he pick at it gently? - have you or the kids been throwing sticks for him? Oh and yes any vet - but you should get an idea from answering the above to yourself honestly. Mike I bet he dont shake that more than once You would need a serious big sock though eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I bet he dont shake that more than once You would need a serious big sock though eh? Surprisingly not that long - works well too. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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